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 Post subject: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2016, 16:17 
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I know that EJO vs EBD is an oft discussed topic, but as I can't find any recent threads I thought I'd reignite it :)
Thanks to the lovely CBBer who recommended FadedPage.com on another thread, I have finally discovered the wonderful EJO and have been going through the Abbey books faster than I can eat a tin of Roses...
Naturally, I can't help comparing EJO and EBD- these are my character parallels Please feel free to disagree, as I haven't read all that many Abbey books (sadly my bank balance is preventing me from reading as much of the series as I would like. I'm already way over my budget for the month):
Jen Robins (Marchwood): Joey Bettany (Maynard): mischievous, deeply affected by history, musical, empathetic, wise, popular.
Joan Shirley (Raymond): Madge Bettany (Russell)
Joy Shirley (Marchwood/Quellyn): Grizel/Margot
Jack: (superficially) Grizel: only in the sense that she is sporty, tomboyish and tends to be left out of things
Jandy-Mac: Juliet Carrick


I was also intrigued by the different representations of romance though both were writing for a similar audience. EJO seems more modern, at least to me. There is none of EBD's notion that discussing romance is "vulgar" (e.g. when Joey teases Juliet): the majority of the Abbey romances are discussed by all and sundry, even when they have just met the person! (e.g. Karen Wilson).

EJO disagrees with the idea that the woman should give up her career for her husband (Gudren is encouraged not to get engaged unless her husband-to-be is happy for her to pursue her own career): this is very different from EBD's Daisy and Julie who give up highly successful careers to get married.

EBD seems to think it's engagement or nothing, whilst I think Len and Reg (for one) would have been better off having an "understanding" like that of Angus & Selma rather than a formal engagement.

With both writers we have difficulties in romances (Juliet & Donal, Rob & Robin, Joy & Andrew) but I feel that the sense that not all romances are plain-sailing is more prevalent in EJO than EBD.

There is also the reaction to the death of the partner: Joy and Andrew, and Joey when Jack is feared dead.

Would love to hear your thoughts, will stop rambling: am so excited about the Abbey books but there doesn't seem to be a CBB equivalent for me express it :(

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2016, 23:02 
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I think EJO was generally writing for an older readership than EBD, which might explain her approach to romance; many of her heroines are girls in their mid to late teens who have left school. Careers/the importance of leading a useful and productive life are recurring themes.

Some heroines are even older; have you met Mary Dorothy Devine yet?

I think young Joey was a more complex character than young Jen; Joey had real faults, which Jen doesn't really have. And I think Madge had more charisma than Joan. But I agree grown up Jen fulfilled a similar role to grown up Joey, being the one who understood everyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 10:26 
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There is an EJO Discussion site, but it hasn't been very active lately - most discussion seems to take place either on FaceBook or in the pages of the Abbey Chronicle.
Look at The Abbey Chronicle Website - especially the FAQs - for further information - or the EJO Discussion Group if you'd like to stir that up; or ask to join the Everything EJO page if you're on FaceBook...

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 12:43 
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As JayB said, most of EJO's books are about girls who've moved into the adult zone, whereas the CS is, apart from maybe Rescue and Reunion, focused on schoolgirls. I find that Madge and Jem's romance is one of the most realistic in CS-land, but we hardly see any of it because the main storylines in Jo of are about what the schoolgirls are doing.

I sometimes get the feeling that romance was just a necessary evil on the path to marriage for EBD: she wanted characters to get married so that she could move them on to a new phase in their lives, and in some cases write them out of the story completely, but she doesn't seem keen on writing about the romances as storylines in themselves. Most romances run smoothly, and we don't see people like Daisy and Julie considering what giving up their careers will mean - we're just told that the decisions have been made.

I think that the La Rochelle books have got more in common with the EJOs than the CS books have, but that could just be me :D. I often wonder if the CS books might have gone more down the Abbey route of being focused on older characters if the CS had stayed in Tyrol, with Madge, Gisela, Gertrud and Bette all living at the Sonnalpe, and Joey and Frieda both set to marry San doctors and settle down there too.

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 14:56 
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I agree with Alison, the Abbey books are more like La Rochelle in that they're not school stories specifically but about a bunch of loosely connected characters and some of them happen to be set in a school. EJO definitely seems to be writing for an older age group as well. Although there are plenty of moments where people are snubbed or put down for 'vulgar' comments about romance, many of which confuse me as I can't figure out what the heinous offence was that the snubee committed!

I do get the impression with the Abbey books that there is a sort of inner circle or favoured few which it must be lovely to belong to, but if you don't you very much don't and that must be horrible.

I agree with your parallels Mrs Helston - especially Joy who, like Grizel and Margot, usually has to be the baddie. :roll:

I think EJO is even worse than EBD for sanctifying her favourite character (Jen/Jo). Grown up Jen really is too much at times (and young Jen can be awful in the retrospective ones), though she's lovely in some of the early ones, like the one where they meet Mary-Dorothy. Although neither of them are as bad as LM Montgomery, whose adulation of Anne towards the end has me reaching for a bucket.

ETA I agree that the romance in EBD is much more 'means to an end' (the end being at least one set of twins) than for EJO, who I think enjoyed writing about the romances themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 16:27 
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Quote:
I often wonder if the CS books might have gone more down the Abbey route of being focused on older characters if the CS had stayed in Tyrol, with Madge, Gisela, Gertrud and Bette all living at the Sonnalpe, and Joey and Frieda both set to marry San doctors and settle down there too.

I think EBD herself didn't know. New is a bit of a mishmash between school and adult Jo, and less successful as a result, I think. I think if not for the Anschluss, New might have been the last CS book. I think if EBD had chosen to focus on the grown up characters at the Sonnalpe, she'd soon have found it very limiting, although I suppose she could have featured the Annexe more.

In EJO, while the Abbey remained central, she has books wholly or partly set in other locations - Cheltenham, London, Sussex, even France. Even then, in the later books, it does at time degenerate into 'who's had twins this year?'

With the La Rochelle books, Janie of La R. was a nice account of the first year of Janie's married life, but the fact that EBD didn't write any more suggest that she didn't know what to do with the characters next. I do think writing schoolgirls was EBD's forte.

Quote:
Grown up Jen really is too much at times (and young Jen can be awful in the retrospective ones)

I've recently read a couple of the retrospectives for the first time, and I found Jen, and to some extent Joy, really annoying. Jen never just 'says' something, she always 'shouts' or 'cries'. And yes, I did feel sorry for Jack Wilmot; only invited to please Jen, not because they wanted her for herself.

Someone on another thread compared Len to Joan. I think that's a fair comparison. Pretty, kind, competent, conscientious, but with no outstanding flaw or talent.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 18:22 
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JayB wrote:
Someone on another thread compared Len to Joan. I think that's a fair comparison. Pretty, kind, competent, conscientious, but with no outstanding flaw or talent.


Ooh yes I like the Len comparison: nice, popular, but rather perfect. Most (possibly) all of the retrospectives are on Fadedpage.
I agree there is the same focus on fecundity: Robins in the Abbey is simply boiling over with babies! Is this the case with other GO authors? Isn't it all rather Victorian? (I think Rosamund was like this lady: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-37969979
Yes, I agree that with EBD the focus is less on the romantic relationship (apart from, to an extent, Joey and Jack) and more on the results (i.e. plenty of children/being forced to move etc.) I don;t know if it's because I'm older and so more aware of the hints, bit I felt that it was more obvious when EJO's characters are pregnant than when EBD's are mysteriously "busy!"

I feel so sorry for Mary Devine: Joy refers to her as "only" Mary, and she is almost the emotional version of Anna. It annoys me when Joy thinks that Jen couldn't possibly take Rosamund to Switzerland, but of course Mary can jump up and do so (this is before there is any hint that Jen is pregnant).

I do find that the CS girls are much nicer than the Abbey girls. The incidents with Lavinia's book and Jen's jumper puts even St Joan & St Jen in a bad light! I feel that the the CS girls are kinder in a less patronising way (or maybe I am just biased).

I feel that EBD would disapprove of the friendships in EJO: she prefers jolly, group camaraderie: Jen's worship of Joan, and her "marriage" to Jacky-boy would be too sentimental for the CS.

Thank you for the recommendations Abbey, I'll look them up!

I haven't read the La Rochelle books but interested by the parallels.

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 18:38 
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I think the Retrospectives alter the characters in an attempt to modernise them, but it doesn't work and I don't bother to read them now. I'm fond of the Chalet girls but I love the Abbey girls and I'm sure EJO had a bit more experience at least of observing love affairs at relatively close quarters than EBD. Even though the Dunkerley sisters never married, the two Dunkerley boys did, so their courtships must have been intensely interesting to the girls. Babies too, EJO was the eldest and had plenty of experience of small children, even though she makes them rather sickening!

As for the hints of pregnancy, I can see it easily as an adult but I remember talking to my mother about it and she - born in 1911 - said girls simply didn't know so the idea that Maidlin doesn't realise Joy is about 7-8 months pregnant and suggests she plays tennis, is perfectly feasible. (Mum didn't know about periods and was mystified when she started. She discussed it with her brother, put her nightie in to be washed and went to school. Came home to lunch only to be put straight to bed by her mother who had obviously worked out what had happened.) Maidlin must have secretly wondered why Joy had got so fat on her trip to Africa!

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2016, 22:00 
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It annoys me when Joy thinks that Jen couldn't possibly take Rosamund to Switzerland, but of course Mary can jump up and do so

Yes, and then when she's on her way home, she's told she can't go home immediately, she has to hang around in London for a few hours until Maidlin gets home from school, when probably all she wanted was to get home and have a bath and change her clothes. What a way to treat a woman in her thirties who is supposed to be your trusted secretary and friend!

Mary and Biddy are in some ways a more realistic and sadder version of Madge and Jo. Mary doesn't have Madge's get-up-and-go, but she's had a harder time generally than Madge.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2016, 14:44 
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mrs helston wrote:
I do find that the CS girls are much nicer than the Abbey girls. The incidents with Lavinia's book and Jen's jumper puts even St Joan & St Jen in a bad light!


Jen's jumper... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The sad thing about this storyline, for me, is that there's no authorial disapproval whatsoever. I think EBD would probably have pointed out at some point that the way the girls are behaving is incredibly hurtful, whether or not they intend to be nasty, but EJO doesn't and I think we're actually supposed to sympathise with the so-called dilemma.

In fairness to Joy and Jen, I have always assumed that the reason Jen 'can't possibly go' with Rosamund is because she's pregnant. I like to think as well that Mary was glad to seize the chance to go to Switzerland :)

There is one retrospective, I think it's called 'Strangers at the Abbey' where a cousin of Joy and Joan (or maybe just Joan) comes to stay, and she's wearing makeup. Jen is I think supposed to be about 13 and apparently she is so naive she doesn't even realise :roll: This is to me almost harder to believe than that Maidlin wouldn't realise Jen was pregnant (at least she is suggesting she do some exercise :lol: )

mrs helston wrote:
I feel so sorry for Mary Devine: Joy refers to her as "only" Mary, and she is almost the emotional version of Anna. It annoys me when Joy thinks that Jen couldn't possibly take Rosamund to Switzerland, but of course Mary can jump up and do so (this is before there is any hint that Jen is pregnant).

I feel sorry for Mary in the later books when she's still beating herself up about being so dreamy years earlier, and people are scornful about her handling of the twins who've never even met her!

JayB wrote:
And yes, I did feel sorry for Jack Wilmot; only invited to please Jen, not because they wanted her for herself.

Whatever happens to Jack? Is she even written out properly?


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2016, 15:40 
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Jack's family moves to London and I think she appears occasionally when they meet or stay with her when visiting London as young single women, but as I recall she just fades out once Joy and Jen are married. I don't recall her ever visiting Jen or being auntie or godmother to her children, which is what would happen in CS land.

While both EJO and EBD like to see their favourite characters happily married, I think EBD also gives us plenty of strong single career women - Hilda, Nell, Rosalie, et al. EJO talks about careers, but the two established characters who are single and remain so are Mary Dorothy and Rachel, and Mary is put upon and Rachel is wet. (In my opinion)

I can't see any CS character (other than Miss Bubb!) thinking it OK to treat Rosalie in the way that Mary is sometimes treated. Rosalie is treated as a professional deserving of respect, not as a poor relation and hanger on.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2016, 18:08 
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Jen goes to Jack's wedding in AG Play Up - but I think that's the last we hear of her - though of course EJO revisits her character in the Retrospectives.

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2016, 15:09 
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Oh well, at least she gets married off rather than being completely forgotten about. :)

I re-read the Jen's jumper chapters last night just to see if I was being unfair to EJO and her characters, but if anything it was worse than I remembered. Literally every time anyone mentions it they have to also say how ugly it is. Betty, who hasn't even seen the offending item at this point, apparently has to warn Jen of its' ugliness (just how frail is Jen supposed to be at this point????) And contrast is frequently made between the awfulness of the jumper and Jen's own exquisite work. The whole thing infuriates me.

Not to mention, I don't think Jen should have taken the whistle from Archie either. It is a family heirloom and while at least Jen is appropriately grateful for the gift in this case, a child should not be allowed to give something that important away to the local Lady Bountiful (who doesn't even keep it anyway). I'm not thinking of the money here, I know they do give them money, but simply of the personal value. EJO doesn't even seem to recognise that the item could be of significance, other than financial, to the family.

I actually wish Mary would get married, because it would be a nice change to have an 'older' romance, and also so she'd have a life of her own rather than writing novels in between babysitting the demon twins. I'd like to have seen Rosamund as a single woman though, rather than getting married and popping out twins like there's no tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2016, 16:26 
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I wouldn't necessarily want to see Mary getting married, but I would like to see her with her own circle of friends, separate from the Abbey crowd, perhaps among other writers that she could discuss her writing with.

I liked Ruth Devine a lot, she was very clear sighted about the Abbey crowd. I always thought it was a shame she was written out.

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2016, 15:01 
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She Knew Too Much :lol:

I'd definitely like to see Mary with friends outside the Abbey crew. But as well as writing out Ruth Biddy is shoved off to France, presumably because she was too disruptive a presence, so Mary really hasn't got anyone else to turn to (the village people are obviously out of bounds since they are all Lower Class).

It might have been nice to see Mary stepping in to teach at Miss Macey's school (though I'm not sure what she'd have taught). She manages to teach folk dancing after only having a couple of lessons herself, so she obviously has a knack for it!


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 12:56 
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I wish poor Mary could have had a life of her own instead effectively fulfilling the "poor relative/maiden aunt role". I hate how in Jen of the Abbey, both Jen and Mary are guilty of the same fault (not thinking deeply enough), but it is Mary who struggles to overcome this, whilst Jen offers condescending advice!
I find EJO's inclusion of religion more realistic than the CS girls quoting scriptures on a mountain: the Abbey girls on really think about God and life when faced with adversity, which I think is frequently the case (and which I'm guilty of). It's what happens in the earlier Tyrol books e.g. Grizel and Joey praying when trapped on the Tiernjoch, or asking Madge about death when a San patient dies..it all seems so much more natural when compared to. say, the piety of young Len or M-L preaching to Naomi.
I've just started reading Queen of the Abbey and I was rather shocked at Jen's reaction to Della and Dick. Della's comment re. Ken is perhaps slightly "vulgar", but I feel that it's similar to discussions re. Joy & Andrew before they are engaged. I'm not sure it merits the "icy" treatment and Jen's wish to "get rid" of them. Dick pretending to carve the walls again is immature, but does it make him so unlikeable?

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 14:10 
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Mary isn't yet in the series in either Schoolgirl Jen at the Abbey or Jen of the Abbey School ... which title does the 'not thinking' come into?

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 14:40 
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mrs helston wrote:
I've just started reading Queen of the Abbey and I was rather shocked at Jen's reaction to Della and Dick. Della's comment re. Ken is perhaps slightly "vulgar", but I feel that it's similar to discussions re. Joy & Andrew before they are engaged. I'm not sure it merits the "icy" treatment and Jen's wish to "get rid" of them. Dick pretending to carve the walls again is immature, but does it make him so unlikeable?


Me too, mrs helston! I think part of it must stem from the fact that Dick and Della weren't very well liked beforehand, but it does make the Abbey crowd seem a bit unforgiving. But there are lots of subtleties re 'vulgarness' that I just don't get.

I was re-reading In Town the other day - why does Mary get so het up about Biddy borrowing the dress? If it was just that she was afraid it would be damaged and they'd have to replace it, that would be fine, but she seems to have other concerns too.


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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 16:01 
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abbeybufo wrote:
Mary isn't yet in the series in either Schoolgirl Jen at the Abbey or Jen of the Abbey School ... which title does the 'not thinking' come into?


Oops sorry, have been reading them all at once in a jumbled order! The one where Jen's mother dies, and where Andrew dies. Possibly Win Through?

I was confused by the dress thing - was it because it's not the "done" thing to borrow a dress?

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 Post subject: Re: Romance in EBD vs. EJO
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2016, 17:22 
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Jen's mother and Andrew both die in Win Through, yes. Jen does apologise for hurting Mary, and Mary is certainly trying to think things through, in that one.

Biddy's dress incident is in AG Again - and yes, borrowing someone else's dress would not be the done thing - especially in Mary & Biddy's situation, where they couldn't afford another. From pride alone, Mary would not have agreed, let alone from the practical POV. It is meant to show Biddy's immaturity.

Regarding Dick and Della, they are set up in the beginning as 'baddies' - see Girls of the Abbey School, and everything they do is meant to be in bad taste. Teasing about Ken might just about have been acceptable for someone who had known Jen continuously for 7 years, though it would still have been seen as a bit vulgar; but for someone who had known her for a few months 7 years earlier and has just turned up again, it was not good manners at all. Things were very different then - and even up to the fifties it wouldn't have been 'nice'. In the 1920s and in these circles, it's another thing that's meant to show that Della, despite all her money, wasn't 'one of us'. We may not like that attitude nowadays, but that's just how it was.

Dick is younger than Jen anyway, and she isn't interested in him - or indeed anyone at this stage - in a romantic sense. Yes, she gets taken in by his practical joke, and is embarrassed - and teased by Ros - for being 'had', but it's meant to show his immaturity that he would play such a joke.

/essay

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