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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 20:19 
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Gottfried wrote:
cal562301 wrote:
The 'word' in question has certainly been around for a long time. I remember it as far back as the 80s, and possibly even earlier.

I remember my father showing me that in about 1962, and telling me that he got it from his father thirty years earlier!


It's a musical hall joke dating back to 1855.

And it's also untrue. The rules of English pronounciation means that it is pronounced exactly as you would expect from the spelling


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 08:12 
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Am I right in thinking the Guardian has its "not" in the wrong place here?

"Many tourists are not believed to have registered their travel plans and movements."

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 09:09 
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I'd say "believed not to have registered". I don't think you could really misinterpret "not believed to have registered" as meaning that they had registered their plans but no-one believed that they had :lol:, but the "not" goes with "to have registered", not with "believed".

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 10:53 
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Alison H wrote:
I'd say "believed not to have registered". I don't think you could really misinterpret "not believed to have registered" as meaning that they had registered their plans but no-one believed that they had :lol:, but the "not" goes with "to have registered", not with "believed".


You're making my brain hurt. :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 16:57 
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cestina wrote:
Am I right in thinking the Guardian has its "not" in the wrong place here?

"Many tourists are not believed to have registered their travel plans and movements."

Alison H wrote:
I'd say "believed not to have registered". I don't think you could really misinterpret "not believed to have registered" as meaning that they had registered their plans but no-one believed that they had :lol:, but the "not" goes with "to have registered", not with "believed".


Yes, I agree. They ARE believed not- to- have- registered. Like Alison, I doubt it would be misunderstood, but it is imprecise. If you were in the right mood you could argue about the semantics of the sentence.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 17:45 
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Oh good, it wasn't just me then. Actually I quite often find sentences a bit like this with things attached in the wrong place...

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 12:31 
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The Stag's Head pub by me has just had a very expensive revamp with custom signs on the doors of the ladies and gents loos:

Buck's and Doe's

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 14:00 
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Quote:
"Alltrup" smacks of centuries of inbreeding and cultural isolation.

:-? :-? :-?
Thrup/throp is a perfectly respectable Anglo Saxon/Old English place name element.

When I was 'doing' place names as part of a university course, the lecturer suggested the confusion came about because Althorp is in the Danelaw :viking: The original English inhabitants said Althrup. The Danish incomers said thorp, because that was what they were familiar with. Althorp became the accepted spelling, but the locals continued to say it as they always had.

It's in Domesday as -thorp, but Domesday was written in Latin by clerks who probably spoke Norman French, writing down what they thought they were told by surly English (or in this case Anglo-Danish) peasants who didn't want to talk to them anyway.

The only way to know for sure whether it was originally a throp or a thorp would be if there was written evidence of the name pre-dating the Danish settlements, i.e. the first half of the ninth century or earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 18:29 
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Thank you, JayB. It's always nice to have things explained properly but I was just having a pop at the aristocracy!


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 18:59 
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That's interesting. I'm used to thinking of thorp as a Norse place name - Scunthorpe, Cleethorpes, etc, mostly on the east coast where there were a lot of Vikings :D - and never thought of it being an Anglo-Saxon word as well. I think it's the same word as the Afrikaans/Dutch dorp, Swiss-German dorf, etc, so logically it should exist in most Germanic languages, but I've never really thought about it that much before :lol: .

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:30 
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Anglo-Saxon is a Germanic language. Indeed, it is categorised as a Primitive Germanic Language of the Indo-European Group.

Some Urdu words are the same as Early English words, showing the common heritage.

Lecture over.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 21:41 
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That's what I meant :lol: - that if it exists in so many other Germanic languages, it should exist in Anglo-Saxon too.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 22:04 
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On a different tack, has anyone here come across the word 'heretowith'? It seems to be intended to be an equivalent to 'wherewithal', and to my ear has an almost Trumpian ring.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 22:19 
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I've heard heretofore :D .

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2017, 23:17 
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And I've heard herewith :D .


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2017, 21:11 
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'Evidence' apparently became a verb some time ago; an organisation I work for requires us 'to evidence' this, that or the other.

Now it seems 'digital' is a noun. I'm invited to online training sessions on 'using digital'. Digital what, I shout at the screen when I read this.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 13:10 
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I'm currently, and unusually for me, reading a book which was published this year. I'm starting to wonder whether some of the grammar rules with which most of us grew up are changing.

There are quite a few examples of the sorts of things we often complain about on here, eg, misplaced apostrophes, dubious grammar and common misspellings.

I suspect that the book is aimed at a slightly younger market than my 61 years, though it's certainly not a children's book.

Either that, or it's a case of sloppy editing/proofreading, for which there is no excuse (apologies to those who do it for a living!). The editor/proofreader should know better, even though the author may not.

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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 15:16 
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cal562301 wrote:
I'm currently, and unusually for me, reading a book which was published this year. I'm starting to wonder whether some of the grammar rules with which most of us grew up are changing.

There are quite a few examples of the sorts of things we often complain about on here, eg, misplaced apostrophes, dubious grammar and common misspellings.

I suspect that the book is aimed at a slightly younger market than my 61 years, though it's certainly not a children's book.

Either that, or it's a case of sloppy editing/proofreading, for which there is no excuse (apologies to those who do it for a living!). The editor/proofreader should know better, even though the author may not.


The issue may be that any "editing/proof-reading" was done using a spell checker of some description. They will not pick a lot of these kinds of mistakes because they cannot do "context" but "the computer says" is considered to be an adequate answer.
Whatever the reason, it is still sloppiness (or perhaps "cheapskatery" since machine-checking costs less than a human being).


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2017, 21:13 
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Partly that publishers can't afford the detailed editing processes they used to have, and also partly, I suspect, that very few people under fifty actually know how to use an apostrophe correctly.

Round about the early-mid '70s, the idea took hold that you mustn't stifle children's creativity by teaching them punctuation, so no-one was taught how to use apostrophes. Or what a verb is, or how to punctuate dialogue, and so on.


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 Post subject: Re: Pedants of the World (or the CBB) unite!
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2017, 08:42 
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I spent three hours on Monday doing the final proofing on a friend's (self-published) book. She is a good writer, but errors can creep in when you are reading and editing (and repeating those two steps over and over). I caught quite a few errors, including a diary/dairy typo.

I'm a "child of the mid '70s" and didn't get taught grammar etc, but I must be the lucky one who picked it up by osmosis. Voluntary proofing helps keep my skills honed.


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