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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2017, 14:51 
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cal562301 wrote:
Jennie wrote:
As male ballet dancers are often viewed as 'Sissies', it's quite clear that those who believe that have never realised just how strong a male ballet dancer has to be, to perform lifts and accomplish those grand jetes.

Apparently, during WW2, male ballet dancers in Russia used to be given double rations because they needed them for their physical exertions.


I have always got the impression that viewing male dancers as 'sissies' (and perhaps questioning their sexuality) is more prevalent among men than among women.


Yes, with women, they sexualise both pre-teen sexes and freak out about little boys
seeing their daughters changing into their ballet duds. Of course if the genders were reversed, these Mums would not give a toss about a little boy's humiliation if their daughters caught him changing. ("nice undies!")


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 14:01 
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When I was a boy in the 1960s, the idea of boys attending ballet classes would have been seen by many people, especially in the north of England, as little short of scandalous. I'm delighted that society has improved a bit in 50-odd years but until we get rid of this absurd girls-pink-boys-blue idea (frequently perpetrated by grandparents!), there will still be a lot of ignorant people who will poke fun, or worse.


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 15:39 
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Gottfried wrote:
...... but until we get rid of this absurd girls-pink-boys-blue idea (frequently perpetrated by grandparents!), there will still be a lot of ignorant people who will poke fun, or worse.

Not this grandparent Gottfried, but it's exceedingly hard to avoid it, especially when buying for toddlers....

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 15:52 
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cestina wrote:
Gottfried wrote:
...... but until we get rid of this absurd girls-pink-boys-blue idea (frequently perpetrated by grandparents!), there will still be a lot of ignorant people who will poke fun, or worse.

Not this grandparent Gottfried, but it's exceedingly hard to avoid it, especially when buying for toddlers....


Or this great-aunt. Though great-niece spontaneously gravitated (she was about 18 months at the time) towards the pink wellingtons ...

I get really annoyed at the whole pink/blue thing. I buy boys' anoraks - not only are they cheaper (no VAT) but they have the added advantage of not being pink (or any other pastel for that matter). Of course, there is nothing to stop boys/men buying girls'/womens' anoraks (nor should there be) if they prefer the colours.

Except - before anyone else mentions it the sizes . I'm small so I don't need the largest "child" size.

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 16:43 
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Well, I knew the grandparents on the CBB would be beyond reproach! I just wanted to add that my favourite pullover is pink.


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 17:12 
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Gottfried wrote:
Well, I knew the grandparents on the CBB would be beyond reproach! I just wanted to add that my favourite pullover is pink.


When I die my niece wants my ink shirt - it is very superior pink short

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 19:20 
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There was an article in the Guardian some months ago that suggested closing women's prisons as women are less culpable than men when they commit crimes and that leniency should be shown when they commit the same crime as a man.


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2017, 20:15 
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Without giving too much away [and I hope I'm allowed to make three posts in one day!], I worked for ten years, until relatively recently, in the criminal justice system. The ratio of women to men 'offenders' was about one to ten and virtually all the women I met had some sort of serious problem which was a factor in their offences - addiction, depression, abuse, poverty, etc. I rarely met a woman who was just awkward or naturally aggressive, so I reckon there might be some mileage in that point of view. Not a lot of women are in the prison systems in Scandinavia or Germany.


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2017, 07:31 
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Yes but saying women are less culpable then men just because they're women is sexist. Women are not a monolith, they are individuals with their own circumstances and experiences.

Riley Ann Sawyers' mother was just as involved in killing Riley as her stepfather. Should she have been set free just because women are a marginalised group?


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2017, 12:08 
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Gottfried wrote:
Without giving too much away [and I hope I'm allowed to make three posts in one day!], I worked for ten years, until relatively recently, in the criminal justice system. The ratio of women to men 'offenders' was about one to ten and virtually all the women I met had some sort of serious problem which was a factor in their offences - addiction, depression, abuse, poverty, etc. I rarely met a woman who was just awkward or naturally aggressive, so I reckon there might be some mileage in that point of view. Not a lot of women are in the prison systems in Scandinavia or Germany.


I worked in Spain with recovering drug addicts for 5 years. Most of the men had criminal records as long as your arm, including at least 2 that I knew of, who had killed someone.

Some of the women also had criminal records. But they found it easier to survive on the streets by selling their bodies. (I'm not condoning or condemning them for that, simply stating a fact from my experience.)

Mental health issues, often exacerbated by substance abuse, were common amongst both sexes.

Because our long-term success rate was good*, we often had people referred to us by the justice system as an alternative to a custodial sentence. The courts knew that if they sent an addict to prison, (s)he might go through forced cold turkey, but the chances were that as soon as they were released they would return to their old life of crime and addiction.

*Around 10% being still clear of drugs after a year. (That may sound low, but it was about twice the success rate of government-run centres.)

ETA My favourite colour, because I know it suits me, has been blue for many years.

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2017, 16:27 
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The whole gender binary is just so tiring. What does it matter if your little Joseph is interested in ballet, or your little Josephine enjoys rugby. It matters more that they both grow into reasonably well-adjusted adults who feel free to pursue whatever interests them (so long as it harms no-one else, obviously). Why does gender have to be only male and female anyway? :dontknow:

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 29 Sep 2017, 19:53 
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Spot on Minim!

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 06:55 
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there's so much backlash against gender fluid and genderless people because most human's minds *reject* things that they do not understand. They are *frightened* by things that they do not understand. And, instead of working to assuage that fear, people on the left response with ridicule and insulting elitist phrases like "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!".


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 08:16 
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That phrase doesn't read as ridicule, or as elitist, or as insulting, or "from the left" to me...


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 09:07 
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I sometimes feel as if boys are getting the thin end of the wedge with this. I don't think anyone would laugh or think it strange if little Josephine wanted to play rugby, but there seems to be a different take on little Joseph playing ballet. Maybe it's always been like that. There are characters like George in the Famous Five, and Tom in the Chalet School with her carpentry, girls who are into traditional "boy" things, but it's hard to think of any boys in books from the same era who are into traditional "girl" things.

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 09:33 
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You're quite right, Alison. A while ago, I wrote on a similar topic that it was perfectly normal for boys to try out women's clothes or make-up, but that it would be unwise for them to go out of the house. This wasn't because of any prejudice on my part but simply because they would get a very hard time from other boys, and probably girls. It's all very well saying that gender shouldn't matter if you're comfortable with that idea, but most people aren't. There is still a lot of pressure on both boys and girls to behave in a certain way but girls don't usually get beaten up for not conforming!


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 10:56 
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HopeBeale wrote:
And, instead of working to assuage that fear, people on the left response with ridicule and insulting elitist phrases like "We're here, we're queer, get used to it!".


a) I've only really heard that in respect to gay people;

b) As a closeted genderqueer person myself, it is not my responsibility to explain myself to the world if/when I start trying to present as my gender. I mean, yeah, I'm fine with explaining that I am sometimes male, occasionally female, and mostly slap bang in the middle between the two, but talking about it any further than that goes into intensely personal stuff. Simply figuring out my gender was confusing and frightening (I finally found the last piece of the jigsaw this month) and I actually have to *live* with it. (Actually, I'm finding your emphasis on people who *don't* have to deal with having a non-binary gender themselves mildly insulting, even though I'm pretty sure you don't mean it that way). Spending half my time trying to justify my gender to people? I have a feeling that I'll have to just to be treated with the same respect that cisgendered people automatically get and I'll have to fight to be recognised as the gender I am - something cisgendered people will never have to do.

c) Just because a person doesn't understand another person it doesn't mean that they are entitled to be jerkasses! They're scared of me, well I'm scared of them. Because they are the people who will harass me or assault me or discriminate against me in any other way. (Wikipedia). And what has anyone's being non-binary done to them? Hardly anything.

d) One thing I have learned from the ace discourse on Tumblr? Biased. People. Don't. Fucking. Listen. To. The. People. Who. They. Are. Attacking. Constantly. And. So. It. Is. Improbable. That. They. Would. Give. The. Time. Of. Day. To. Others. Because. They. Don't. Give. A. Damn.

*drops mic, walks out*

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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 11:45 
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Im sorry. Im just a litte stung after marriage equality campaigners decided to commission a study saying that no voters were less intelligent. Such unhelpful elitism.
http://www.afr.com/news/politics/resear ... 926-gyoryk


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 17:22 
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HopeBeale wrote:
Im sorry. Im just a litte stung after marriage equality campaigners decided to commission a study saying that no voters were less intelligent. Such unhelpful elitism.
http://www.afr.com/news/politics/resear ... 926-gyoryk


I don't want to get political here, but that study wasn't commissioned by marriage equality campaigners. The correlation was more widespread, and linked egalitarian views to three measures of cognitive ability.

However, I think the causal relationship is likely to be the other way - people with a lower cognitive ability are more likely to be conservative. That doesn't mean all conservative thinkers have a low cognitive ability (no correlation is anything like 1).

The study is described better here.


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 Post subject: Re: little boys in ballet/dance
PostPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 18:01 
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Gottfried wrote:
When I was a boy in the 1960s, the idea of boys attending ballet classes would have been seen by many people, especially in the north of England, as little short of scandalous. I'm delighted that society has improved a bit in 50-odd years but until we get rid of this absurd girls-pink-boys-blue idea (frequently perpetrated by grandparents!), there will still be a lot of ignorant people who will poke fun, or worse.


My favourite colour is blue but when I was a child (1970s) I was constantly being told "you can't wear blue dear, blue is for boys. Pink is for girls". I loathed, and still do, pink as a result. I must say that it was rarely any family members telling me that, it was family friends, people at church and so on.
There still seems to be a belief from clothes manufacturers that men don't like bright colours. My son's fave colour is red and has requested a red, hooded, dressing gown for his birthday. Do you think I can find one in the men's section of any shops? :banghead: :banghead:
And why are dressing gowns divided by gender anyway? They all look the same to me!
ETA: When I was visiting my husband in hospital a couple of weeks ago I decided to use the men's loo, rather than waiting for someone to finish in the women's. It seemed completely pointless putting male and female signs on them anyway as there were just two, completely separate, identical toilet cubicles, each with their own handbasin etc. Why not just have "toilet" on each door?

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Last edited by RubyGates on 30 Sep 2017, 18:05, edited 1 time in total.

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