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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 20:23 
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Lesley wrote:
Re comments made about pregnancy one of the worst was after my sister Linda died at age 5 from leukaemia. A year later mum fell pregnant again and tells me she lost count of the number of people who asked if she wanted a girl to replace Linda. And even asked if a girl was born would they name her Linda. Luckily for all concerned by brother David was born.


That's all so sad. No-one, especially a beloved child, can ever be replaced.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2017, 20:51 
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Honestly - just as though a real, living child were a plate from a dinner service - it beggars belief. I hope David's arrival shut some of that up, at least, Lesley.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 13:33 
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Noreen wrote:
Honestly - just as though a real, living child were a plate from a dinner service - it beggars belief. I hope David's arrival shut some of that up, at least, Lesley.


It did, but as David had the same colouring and mannerisms as Linda I think it was difficult for Mum and Dad until he turned 6. Had he been a girl it would have been tens times as bad. People just don't think about what they say though. That's why the comment Joey made to Simone (bringing it back to CS) when she had just had her son about having a real family sounded plausible. Really Joey was far less tactful and less empathetic that EBD would like us to believe - where does she think Con got it from?

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 02:05 
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Joey wasnt tactful at all. Or empathetic, or sensitive, or a responsible adult.

I like Joey, but I am not blind to her faults.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 10:41 
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I'd agree she wasn't a tactful person. That's a character trait that runs throughout the books, and comes out in Con also.

But "not a reponsible adult" - sorry, that sounds a bit OTT. I can't agree.

(I also find her comments to Simone about family size etc. having and son versus a daughter to be unnecessary and tactless. But the comment to Madge about another daughter verus another son just sounds like affectionate teasing between sisters to me.)


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 16:55 
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I find Joey totally responsible.

Tact is probably not her strong point but she has been friends with pretty well all the people that some on here feel she is insulting or upsetting; they know and love her, and I doubt very much if they have the same problems with her statements.

And as for not being sensitive - I find that a really odd statement.

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 17:50 
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Me, too Cestina... :)

I often find the Joey people talk about to not be the Joey I "know". I'm not blind to her faults (she'd be pretty dull as a character if she was super prefect) and obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but sometimes it all just seems a bit extreme, and also very dominant on the board at the moment... :(


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 18:53 
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Obviously I have expressed myself badly. I didnt mean to sound so black and white about it all.

I mean that her lack of sensitivity or empathy when she blunder in being tactless. And the times when I feel she puts far too much responsibility on the triplets, or Anna. And the times when she wont listen to others and seems to talk right over their point of view and wishes.

But i do like Joey, as i said. She has many good points. I am simply addressing the points raised about her lack of tact and habit of steam rollering people into doing things her way.

I frequently comment here, and elsewhere, in a positive way about Joeys positive points.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2017, 23:44 
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I've always liked Joey, from a child right through to today. Yes she can be tactless but I think she would be horrified if she thought she had hurt someone by her comments/actions; speaking as a pretty tactless person myself. I also find some of her "hurtful" comments are between close friends and can be seen as teasing or something that means something different between the two people. One example could be the "real family" comment to Simone; maybe that was a sentiment Simone had expressed over the years and Joey was simply using it as a shorthand that Simone now had what she had always wanted. I know that a lot of the things my friends and I say to each other could be (and often are) misconstrued by other people with no idea of the history between us.

My problem with Joey isn't her herself, but, as other people have said, with the way in which she is presented in later years as an almost saintly figure who can do no wrong, which is obviously not the case. I'd rather have her as she is, but sometimes have other characters realise her faults, even if they don't do anything about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 06:37 
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That's why I really like the storyline with Kathie and Mary-Lou, in New Mistress. It shows EBD, and even Mary-Lou's own friends, acknowledging that, whilst Mary-Lou has many good qualities, there are things about her which other people might well find annoying, and aspects of her behaviour which are not always appropriate. That doesn't make her a bad person: it just makes her human. Everyone gets on other people's nerves sometimes :lol:. But there's no similar storyline with Joey: EBD shows everyone thinking she's perfect. As with many things, it's only an issue in the later books, not the earlier books.

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 10:15 
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Alison H wrote:
That's why I really like the storyline with Kathie and Mary-Lou, in New Mistress. It shows EBD, and even Mary-Lou's own friends, acknowledging that, whilst Mary-Lou has many good qualities, there are things about her which other people might well find annoying, and aspects of her behaviour which are not always appropriate. That doesn't make her a bad person: it just makes her human. Everyone gets on other people's nerves sometimes :lol:. But there's no similar storyline with Joey: EBD shows everyone thinking she's perfect. As with many things, it's only an issue in the later books, not the earlier books.


This is why I like Mary-Lou; she is not perfect. Although she has this great presence, her friends, such as Vi and Hilary and, we are told Verity, have no qualms about ticking her off about her behaviour.

In New Mistress, Mary-Lou is perplexed and genuinely upset about annoying Kathie. She wants to sort out what she has done and even asks Kathie about it after the glacier incident.

I don't particularly want to jump onto the hating Joey bandwagon. Everyone is entitled to her/his opinion and it can be upsetting to have lots of people - as opposed to just one or two - commenting against an opinion. I will state my opposition to various actions of Joey's at the relevant books.

I will say though that it is interesting that it is Mary-Lou who voices the only serious criticism of Joey in the later books, when M -L says in Coming of Age that Joey can be a bit overpowering/overwhelming when she really gets going. Maybe EBD felt herself that she was writing Joey OTT in the Tirol scenes in this book.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 10:27 
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cestina wrote:
Tact is probably not her strong point but she has been friends with pretty well all the people that some on here feel she is insulting or upsetting; they know and love her, and I doubt very much if they have the same problems with her statements.


The 'real' family comment to Simone is often held up as her being insensitive. But we have to remember she is talking to a very close friend who she has known since childhood and they are used to speaking frankly with one another.

Maybe it would have been better if she had said "I know how much you have always wanted more children" but I think her comment is akin to that.

Also have to remember EBD's favourite families in the series are all pretty big ones so to her they are the 'real' families.

Her only children like Emerence and Prunella are either seen as having issues while her other 'only' child - Mary Lou - was promptly given a stepsister (no SBM for me!) and two semi-adopted siblings. But even that wasn't enough and her mother and stepfather died and she pretty much joined the Maynard family. The ultimate reward!

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 05 Jul 2017, 23:26 
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I doidn't think Joey was being insensitive with Simone about her comment of not having a real family. It sounded very much like they had discussed this before and this was a continuation of a conversation they had had before and based on what Simone had said. I think people probably would have accepted the word "incomplete" better rather than "real", though I think EBD meant it as one and the same in this situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 13:38 
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Joyce wrote:
Her only children like Emerence and Prunella are either seen as having issues while her other 'only' child - Mary Lou - was promptly given a stepsister (no SBM for me!) and two semi-adopted siblings. But even that wasn't enough and her mother and stepfather died and she pretty much joined the Maynard family. The ultimate reward!


I never see her as having joined the Maynard family. She strikes me as a bit of a loner who holds everyone at arms length. She is close to her mother and grandmother, but while I think she feels a lot of affection for Verity and her stepfather , I don't think she felt they were family as such. It almost feels that EBD felt bad about saddling her with a mother who was written as weak (although I don't think she actually was) and a stepsister who had turned into a bit of a drip, so decided to "reward" her by getting rid of them in various ways so she could go off and do her own thing without feeling guilty.


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 06 Jul 2017, 15:52 
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I also think Mary-Lou was a loner and never a part of the Maynards. She was close toJoey when younger but how often would she really have seen her? I don't think she was particularly close to the triplets other than as a school hierarchy thing.

The person I do think she was close to on a level footing basis was Vi and I think they would always have been friends.

The same goes for Clem and Tony and it is them and not the Maynards whom I see as M-L's family.

Verity was possibly made into a bit of a drip to enable Mary-Lou to have other friends like Vi and Hilary. If Verity had been bright and sparky and also M-L's sister-by-marriage, it would not have allowed anyone else to get close to M-L.

I do wonder if M-L and Verity would have grown apart in the years to come in a way which Mary-Lou would not have done with Vi or Clem or Tony.

I think Mary-Lou's mother was a nice, regular woman. She helps Verity and her father as well as Clem and Tony. She was not strong physically but that does not make her weak. Sure she was no superwoman like Madge and Joey but I think Doris was more the norm and sure M-L would have ran her if Gran had not been around but who would M-L not have ran?


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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 01:40 
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Audrey25 wrote:
I think Mary-Lou's mother was a nice, regular woman. She helps Verity and her father as well as Clem and Tony.


Oh I agree, but EBD sidelines her way too much. I would have liked to see her at ML's side when she nearly dies or is paralysed. Utterly insane that she is not even featured.

She takes on Verity, Clem and Tony without a qualm which she certainly didn't have to do in the case of Clem and Tony, which actually shows what a strong woman she is.

Would ML have married one of the Bettanys or Russells had the series continued? Or even Roger Richardson?

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 04:09 
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That's an interesting point about Mary-Lou. I agree that she is close to Joey, as a mentor figure, but isn't really close to the rest of the Maynard family (and I don't think the Maynard kids see her as an older-sister figure; her relationship with them is more school like).

I do think she feels a close relationship with Verity, and sees her as a sister. But it's not a balanced relationship; Mary-Lou definitely sees herself as needing to take care of Verity, even to the point of seeing Verity as a potential burden, rather than an ally. There's a general agreement among the CS folk that getting Verity married off was a good thing, because then Mary-Lou wouldn't have to bother with her.

(oh, and I'll plug my Verity drabble)

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 Post subject: Re: Was it wise for Joey to have so many children?
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 05:14 
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Joyce wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I think Mary-Lou's mother was a nice, regular woman. She helps Verity and her father as well as Clem and Tony.


Oh I agree, but EBD sidelines her way too much. I would have liked to see her at ML's side when she nearly dies or is paralysed. Utterly insane that she is not even featured.

She takes on Verity, Clem and Tony without a qualm which she certainly didn't have to do in the case of Clem and Tony, which actually shows what a strong woman she is.

Would ML have married one of the Bettanys or Russells had the series continued? Or even Roger Richardson?

Cheers,
Joyce


I think EBD would have wanted ML to have married Rix or David maybe a few years down the line but it would have been so, so wrong.

For a start what would have happened to her career. Would she still have been able to go on digs abroad? Also, would she have been expected to have children because I just don't see ML as a mother unless with older step-children.

I do see her as a loner. If she did get married I see her being well into her thirties and marrying an older man in the same line, maybe a widower.

The other possibility was Tony. I know he was slightly younger but was it Rex Willoughby in La Rochelle that EBD had marrying Con Atherton who was slightly older. I can see though that EBD would have wanted David or Rix and I think the other was earmarked for Vi.

Roger is interesting. He was quite eligible as well. There were definitely sparks between him and Len but well... Having said that, Jo also seemed quite keen on him as well. Her toy boy?! Maybe another engineer or a friend of Ruey's or Ailie?

Jennifer says about CS folk seeing Verity as a burden to ML. That could be true but a shame. I do think though that ML would have been happy to see Verity settled but only so that Verity would be happy.

Turning back to Joey and children apart from her own. How many of the children Joey was meant to be going to mother does she actually have time for.

She certainly took in Robin and Daisy but that was very much a two-way deal. They acted as companions to Jo and part-time nannies. Sybil went to Yorkshire but was everyone's errand girl. What happened to the MacDonald twins and the Bettanys that summer? The very summer Madge could have done with Jo's help, Jo goes to Yorkshire for months.

It certainly worked with the Richardsons but beyond the initial book we never hear of Adrienne having anyrhing to do with Jo again. In the next book Jo is running after Claire and Erica. Even Claire who the Maynards adopt disappears out of the Freudesheim nursery and a year later Samaris had taken Adrienne's place with little Phil.

EBD brings in lots of new girls whom she dumps after a term because it is easier that way than developing their characters. I would take their involvement with Jo beyond that first term with a pinch of salt.


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