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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 14:55 
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I think it was in the course of a conversation about ML's father and his heroism, and ML wanting to live up to his example. So prompted by ML herself, rather than by Jo.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 16:34 
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JayB wrote:
I think it was in the course of a conversation about ML's father and his heroism, and ML wanting to live up to his example. So prompted by ML herself, rather than by Jo.

Yes, ML has had a very emotional 24 hours, between her shock over how old her grandmother now seems, and having just heard the details on her father's death from her mother, complete with how ML "must never do anything to disgrace his record of courage and truth and loyalty." She's desperate to talk about that when she goes off to Plas Gwyn, and finally gets the opportunity while helping to bathe Michael. Most of the conversation seems perfectly in keeping, but the spiv piece still seems to come out of left field as advice to a schoolgirl, especially one like ML. Maybe "spiv" did have a more generic connotation at the time. Likewise "sloppy," which fits even less well with black-marketeering; at worst, for me, it would mean "careless," as in sloppy science that skips some of the controls or confuses correlation with causation, or sloppy handwriting if the writer could do better given enough time and effort. It can also be the American equivalent of "soppy," as in "sloppy sentimentality." But nothing criminal or willfully underhanded! Lazy, maybe, to go with the slacker. Still, hard to class with despicable, though perhaps despicable in this context is meant as an adjective of petty contempt, so that "nothing more despicable" wouldn't include the more horrifying examples of human depravity.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 17:08 
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I've never heard "spiv" used to mean anything other than someone who deals in black market goods, especially during rationing which would still have been in force during Three Go. The general image of a spiv is of a Flash Harry type, not a schoolgirl! I assume Joey just meant not to do anything dishonest, but it seems a strange choice of word.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 17:36 
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Dad's 1947 American College Dictionary has:
Quote:
Brit. Colloq. one who lives by his wits, without working. dial. variant of spiff, a flashily dressed person, in slang use from c. 1874. Cf. SPIFFY.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 21:34 
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Terrygo wrote:
Haven't read this book in ages, why was Joey lecturing Mary-Lou, I presume they hadn't known each other very long?


EBD dedicated this book to the girls of the Margaret Roper school which she had owned as a farewell gift.

I think she set out to write a book which would be a sort of guidebook and help in life for girls. It was a book about friendship, heroism, being truthful and being the best possible girl.

New girl, Mary-Lou, was basically the pupil to whom those lessons were being taught and EBD used Joey as the teacher to ram home the message.

I don't think that at that stage in her life Mary-Lou knew very many people all that well apart from her mother and gran. Although she probably knew Joey the best of any other adults, it was a recent acquaintance. In EBD's eyes, though, who better than Joey to put over her points.-


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 21:45 
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That's interesting: I didn't know that. Gran does a fair bit of life lesson lecturing as well, about learning to share, and live as part of a community.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 14:21 
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One thing I noticed on re-reading is that Mary Lou says 'vous' when speaking French to her contemporaries. Wouldn't she have said 'tu'? It's Clem she's speaking to on one occasion, so it's not that she's speaking to someone she hasn't known very long.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 16:06 
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Alison H wrote:
That's interesting: I didn't know that. Gran does a fair bit of life lesson lecturing as well, about learning to share, and live as part of a community.


It's a classic - "Community" means "people like us"


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 16:18 
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JayB - All I can say about 'vous' instead of 'tu' is that that was the way I was taught French in the 1960s by a Parisian. She maintained that 'tu' was rarely used except to small children and maybe a pet. Needless to say she did not go into je t'aime!Nowadays we and the French are less formal perhaps.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 16:29 
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Mel wrote:
JayB - All I can say about 'vous' instead of 'tu' is that that was the way I was taught French in the 1960s by a Parisian. She maintained that 'tu' was rarely used except to small children and maybe a pet. Needless to say she did not go into je t'aime!Nowadays we and the French are less formal perhaps.



One was always told that French was very formal and that one should not "tutoyer" without invitation. Also that it was better to be too formal rather than too friendly.

As a pedant, I have pointed out (from time-to-time) that English is so formal, we do not have a "singular" or "less formal" second person pronoun. Our "intimate" second person pronoun is still "you"


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 18:02 
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Yes, I was reproved for addressing a colleague as 'tu' on a French course as recently as the 1990s - I explained that we were also friends, but I think Mme D still thought it unseemly! School use was always 'vous' too.

Victoria wrote:
As a pedant, I have pointed out (from time-to-time) that English is so formal, we do not have a "singular" or "less formal" second person pronoun. Our "intimate" second person pronoun is still "you"
I suppose it is one of the things that makes English easier to learn as a beginner, but I do think it's a pity that 'thou' fell out of use!

In the case of Clem, I think it's at least partly to indicate that she's still at the stage of tacking '-ez' onto any verb she doesn't know the French for (and thereby using 'vous') and hoping it'll do, though. :D

Edited for clarity


Last edited by Noreen on 25 Jun 2017, 20:09, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 18:20 
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My French friend has told me not to use vous except to strangers or to be extra polite. She said that using vous to people on the same level as you makes you sound like you're a lacky in the Three Mustketeers!


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2017, 19:02 
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Laura V wrote:
My French friend has told me not to use vous except to strangers or to be extra polite. She said that using vous to people on the same level as you makes you sound like you're a lacky in the Three Mustketeers!

You beat me to it, Laura! :D My French penfriend's family taught me to use *tu* to address little ones, but also people my own age, but not adults. When I was working in a French children's home as a 21 year old student, I was told to tutoyer even the older ones, up to age 16. This was at variance with my teachers, who taught us to use *vous* - but they were English! I never had any French lessons at school with a French teacher.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 22:46 
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jennifer wrote:
I was wondering more about what real people of that sort of social class and time would do. Would attending the village school really have been that horrible, and if so, what would people do if boarding school from age seven or so wasn't a financial option?

Not horrible, but might not have taught what was wanted to get you through Common Entrance, especially if the school in question demanded a foreign language or, worse, Latin. Usually the village school was fine for the Infants, but if you were planning on sending your child to public school at 11 or 13, you needed to make other arrangements for Juniors. Boarding from 7 or 8 was often an option.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 00:52 
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I was reading excerpts from the about to be published biography about Duchess of Cornwall / Camilla Parker Bowles in, I am very ashamed to admit, the Daily Mail.

Talking about Camilla's own education, the biography says that girls' boarding schools at that time - late fifties/early sixties - were, with a few exceptions, no match at all for grammar schools in giving the girls a good education.

The boarding schools basically trained the girls to be good wives and mothers dabbling a bit in teaching them one or two European languages, cooking, sewing, how to do basic household accounts. I forget if they mentioned music or flower arranging. Sounds as if the CS was par for the course at that time. Maybe even a little bit more advanced.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 07:44 
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There's no need for anyone to feel that they need to apologise for reading a particular newspaper, surely? It's a free country :D.

When Ros Lilley's given her scholarship, her sister Charmian - who must be about 10 years older than Camilla, so the same generation - says that she's sure that a private boarding school won't be as good as Meadowfield High academically, although it will have other advantages.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 07:52 
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Alison H wrote:
There's no need for anyone to feel that they need to apologise for reading a particular newspaper, surely? It's a free country!

When Ros Lilley's given her scholarship, her sister Charmian - who must be about 10 years older than Camilla, so the same generation - says that she's sure that a private boarding school won't be as good as Meadowfield High academically, although it will have other advantages.


Ros's sister probably right.

As for the Daily Mail, I actually do think it is a horrible newspaper so, really, I should not be reading it!


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 07:57 
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I really like that comment by Charmian :D .

Stephen Maynard does go to the village school in the end, in Island, but Jack says that " I warn you he may pick up all sorts of language". Maybe he means slang/dialect rather than "bad" language, but, even so, that's a bit rich coming from someone who swears his head off in one of the holiday books :lol: :lol: .

Jack wanted to send him to boarding school. I think the poor kid was only 4 years old! 5 at the very most.

ETA - this actually happens in Island, so I'll waffle about it in the Island thread :lol: .

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 01 Jul 2017, 12:32 
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Audrey25 wrote:
I was reading excerpts from the about to be published biography about Duchess of Cornwall / Camilla Parker Bowles in, I am very ashamed to admit, the Daily Mail.

Talking about Camilla's own education, the biography says that girls' boarding schools at that time - late fifties/early sixties - were, with a few exceptions, no match at all for grammar schools in giving the girls a good education.

The boarding schools basically trained the girls to be good wives and mothers dabbling a bit in teaching them one or two European languages, cooking, sewing, how to do basic household accounts. I forget if they mentioned music or flower arranging. Sounds as if the CS was par for the course at that time. Maybe even a little bit more advanced.


There's a whole book about this by Ysenda Maxtone Graham called Terms and Conditions which makes these points in a combination of hilarious and excruciating detail. I think it's come up in the Recommendations thread before.

edited to add In browsing my bookshelves this morning, I came across a similar book from a generation ago - Arthur Marshall's Giggling in the Shubbery. Also extremely funny, as those of you who remember him might expect.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Three Go to the Chalet School
PostPosted: 03 Jul 2017, 13:43 
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Mabel wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I was reading excerpts from the about to be published biography about Duchess of Cornwall / Camilla Parker Bowles in, I am very ashamed to admit, the Daily Mail.

Talking about Camilla's own education, the biography says that girls' boarding schools at that time - late fifties/early sixties - were, with a few exceptions, no match at all for grammar schools in giving the girls a good education.

The boarding schools basically trained the girls to be good wives and mothers dabbling a bit in teaching them one or two European languages, cooking, sewing, how to do basic household accounts. I forget if they mentioned music or flower arranging. Sounds as if the CS was par for the course at that time. Maybe even a little bit more advanced.


There's a whole book about this by Ysenda Maxtone Graham called Terms and Conditions which makes these points in a combination of hilarious and excruciating detail. I think it's come up in the Recommendations thread before.

edited to add In browsing my bookshelves this morning, I came across a similar book from a generation ago - Arthur Marshall's Giggling in the Shubbery. Also extremely funny, as those of you who remember him might expect.


She is also incredibly condescending towards unmarried women, to the point where she is quite offensive about them. She would probably have approved of EBD's 'too dear and sweet' comment.


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