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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 12:50 
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MaryR wrote:
I would have to agree about the negativity surrounding Joey, cestina, but I feel there's just as much negativity re Robin becoming a nun. Why on earth shouldn't she? Yes, there were other options for her, but I always felt there was a certain serenity in her character, and a self-containment that spoke of a vivid interior life. It doesn't matter that there's never been any intimation of a vocation. It can happen very suddenly..


I agree. Robin seemed to already have a lot of the traits suitable for a nun, including a very deep faith, and a sense of obedience that was linked to what she believed was right, not just what she was told.

I was disappointed that she was so thoroughly written out of the series - her appearance in Adrienne is lovely, but doesn't make up for her being otherwise overlooked, especially by her family. I would like her to have been closer, perhaps in a continental order, and able to offer advice and support to the Maynards as they grew up. I can see Margot really benefiting from speaking to Aunty Rob, and seeing what a religious vocation actually looks like. It would have made her own choice feel like a much more informed one!

It also vexes me that Robin spent all that time in Arles and no one went to see her! :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 13:38 
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The floor plan puzzles me, I too feel there should have been more rooms on the ground floor.It was a hotel, surely there would have been reception rooms and a bathroom?And as Audrey said if Joey's study was the other big room then surely it must have far too big for her.
I never could quite grasp poor Anna climbing a ladder to her room, it always made me feel like it was a hayloft.And where does Rosli sleep, if its in the night nursery she will have no privacy and no place for her things.
I realise that things were different then and possibly both Anna and Rosli would have been quite happy, but from a modern viewpoint it seems a bit wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 15:03 
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Terrygo wrote:
The floor plan puzzles me, I too feel there should have been more rooms on the ground floor.It was a hotel, surely there would have been reception rooms and a bathroom?And as Audrey said if Joey's study was the other big room then surely it must have far too big for her.
I never could quite grasp poor Anna climbing a ladder to her room, it always made me feel like it was a hayloft.And where does Rosli sleep, if its in the night nursery she will have no privacy and no place for her things.
I realise that things were different then and possibly both Anna and Rosli would have been quite happy, but from a modern viewpoint it seems a bit wrong.
Hmmm - but if Anna's room was Anna's choice? It may even have reminded her of her own family's house. Even privacy wasn't so expected as it is in modern times; Rösli (a) probably was not used to a room of her own at home, and (b) as a nursemaid, very likely expected to be there with the babies in case anything went wrong.

Thank you, though, Terrygo, for hitting the nail neatly on the head - seeing things 'from a modern viewpoint' is getting in the way on this and other topics more than a little bit. A lot of what's in the books may seem wrong to our modern eyes and expectations, but the books are by now real period pieces, and that needs to be considered. Joey Goes to the Oberland was published over sixty years ago by an author born in the late Victorian era, and even in 1954 life (and expectations) were more different than can be imagined. As we've discussed in other topics, there was, for example, the expectation that children would be relatively quiet and well-behaved, even on a long journey, and not screaming their heads off and running wild - there would normally be provision for keeping them entertained, if only in the form of books, puzzles and other diversions. Jo's sandwiches for the house-warming are actually quite funny if you look at some of the cookery books and magazines of the period - people in the UK were so fed up with the shortages and drabness of the 1940s and early 1950s that they dished up some truly remarkable concoctions - one book I have contains a recipe for a party sandwich 'cake' with layers of tongue, sardines, cheese and eggs, and almost every recipe (including that one) calls for the ingredients to be coloured with food dyes. (The ingredients, apart from the bread and butter, will all have been tinned or bottled, so lack of shops not a problem). I'd bet EMBD had seen something of the sort, or possibly even eaten or dished up something similar herself...

As for Freudesheim (née Pension Wellington) I have the impression that it was more like a boarding house than a hotel, and certainly not a hotel of the luxurious sort - though I do think that like many another house in CS-land it had Tardis-like qualities in terms of how many rooms it had, how many people it could accommodate, and even its physical layout! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 15:45 
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I've just been reading another book written in the 1950s where a major character (NOT a servant) has a bedroom up a ladder.

When I envisage the "ladder", I'm not thinking of something with open rungs but a very steep staircase that is only supported at the base and top - you do have to go up forwards and come down backwards but they fit into a much smaller space than a true staircase.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 20:49 
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Noreen wrote:
......one book I have contains a recipe for a party sandwich 'cake' with layers of tongue, sardines, cheese and eggs.....


You can still find these types of cake in the present day Czech Republic. Known as savoury gateaux - take a look at some of these!

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 20:51 
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They remind me of Rachel's trifle in friends where she gets the recipe mixed up with cottage pie, and has a layer of mince beef, peas and onions along with the raspberries, cream and ladyfingers.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 21:12 
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Kate wrote:
They remind me of Rachel's trifle in friends where she gets the recipe mixed up with cottage pie, and has a layer of mince beef, peas and onions along with the raspberries, cream and ladyfingers.

Yes they do indeed. I came across them when I was trying to explain the word savoury to a Czech friend, along with the concept of quiche. Aha, she said, a slany dort and showed me some pictures. Er no, not quite I said!

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2017, 21:59 
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Goodness, those are amazing-looking creations, cestina! I bet there isn't any food dye in them though.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2017, 02:30 
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Noreen wrote:
Hmmm - but if Anna's room was Anna's choice? It may even have reminded her of her own family's house.


We are specifically told Anna chose the room and presumably had she wanted another one Joey would have accommodated her. But I also think Anna 'knew her place' and would not, for instance, have chosen the massive study downstairs for herself. So ... maybe a bit of it being her choice, AND her knowing what she should choose :D

Terrygo wrote:
I realise that things were different then and possibly both Anna and Rosli would have been quite happy, but from a modern viewpoint it seems a bit wrong.


Bizarrely, I almost see it the other way round. The way I have seen helpers treated in modern day Asia, makes Joey look saintly in comparison!

The helper I knew who slept on the floor of the children's room, kept her personal belongings with another helper, who had the luxury of a room to herself.

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2017, 03:36 
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MaryR wrote:
but I feel there's just as much negativity re Robin becoming a nun. Why on earth shouldn't she?


I don't think it's negativity so much as confusion and bewilderment that the decision seemingly comes out of nowhere, so it appears as if EBD is simply shunting her aside.

In Island we are told of Mary Ireson's plans to become a nun and given many more details regarding her decision making process.

So it's important for us to know about Mary's decision (and is she mentioned in any other book?), but not Robin's who is such a major character?

Robin Heeds the Call makes up for this gap and really makes clear the steps of her decision process. As well as the fact that such a beautiful girl did, of course, attract male attention! :D

Cheers,
Joyce

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Last edited by Joyce on 27 Aug 2017, 01:24, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2017, 07:56 
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Noreen wrote:
Terrygo wrote:
The floor plan puzzles me, I too feel there should have been more rooms on the ground floor.It was a hotel, surely there would have been reception rooms and a bathroom?And as Audrey said if Joey's study was the other big room then surely it must have far too big for her.
I never could quite grasp poor Anna climbing a ladder to her room, it always made me feel like it was a hayloft.And where does Rosli sleep, if its in the night nursery she will have no privacy and no place for her things.
I realise that things were different then and possibly both Anna and Rosli would have been quite happy, but from a modern viewpoint it seems a bit wrong.
Hmmm - but if Anna's room was Anna's choice? It may even have reminded her of her own family's house. Even privacy wasn't so expected as it is in modern times; Rösli (a) probably was not used to a room of her own at home, and (b) as a nursemaid, very likely expected to be there with the babies in case anything went wrong.

Thank you, though, Terrygo, for hitting the nail neatly on the head - seeing things 'from a modern viewpoint' is getting in the way on this and other topics more than a little bit. A lot of what's in the books may seem wrong to our modern eyes and expectations, but the books are by now real period pieces, and that needs to be considered. Joey Goes to the Oberland was published over sixty years ago by an author born in the late Victorian era, and even in 1954 life (and expectations) were more different than can be imagined. As we've discussed in other topics, there was, for example, the expectation that children would be relatively quiet and well-behaved, even on a long journey, and not screaming their heads off and running wild - there would normally be provision for keeping them entertained, if only in the form of books, puzzles and other diversions. Jo's sandwiches for the house-warming are actually quite funny if you look at some of the cookery books and magazines of the period - people in the UK were so fed up with the shortages and drabness of the 1940s and early 1950s that they dished up some truly remarkable concoctions - one book I have contains a recipe for a party sandwich 'cake' with layers of tongue, sardines, cheese and eggs, and almost every recipe (including that one) calls for the ingredients to be coloured with food dyes. (The ingredients, apart from the bread and butter, will all have been tinned or bottled, so lack of shops not a problem). I'd bet EMBD had seen something of the sort, or possibly even eaten or dished up something similar herself...

As for Freudesheim (née Pension Wellington) I have the impression that it was more like a boarding house than a hotel, and certainly not a hotel of the luxurious sort - though I do think that like many another house in CS-land it had Tardis-like qualities in terms of how many rooms it had, how many people it could accommodate, and even its physical layout! :D


Thank, Noreen! No like button on here :D , but I very appreciate that context for a book I've always rather enjoyed.

Regarding Joey helping the school and the school helping Joey, various Swiss books have examples, one way and another. I think they saw themselves as a little community, with the San, and later joined by Biddy, Hilary etc. They were quite isolated, they helped each other out when needed. End of.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2017, 08:02 
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Joyce wrote:
Noreen wrote:
Hmmm - but if Anna's room was Anna's choice? It may even have reminded her of her own family's house.


We are specifically told Anna chose the room and presumably had she wanted another one Joey would have accommodated her. But I also think Anna 'knew her place' and would not, for instance, have chosen the massive study downstairs for herself. So ... maybe a bit of it being her choice, AND her knowing what she should choose.

Cheers,
Joyce


I suspect being up that ladder gave her the privacy she might not have had elsewhere... probably quite a clever choice. Almost like having her own private apartment within the house.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2017, 15:42 
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I imagine it would be quite warm in the winter although the cooking smells would, I confess, annoy me, but then, I don't cook, perhaps Anna liked them.

There is a book I have read recently, can't remember which one, where Anna is making bread late at night and Joey gives her the next weekend off because of it.Which is good but I confess the thought has just popped into my head about who did the cooking that weekend?


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 26 Aug 2017, 16:39 
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Terrygo wrote:
I imagine it would be quite warm in the winter although the cooking smells would, I confess, annoy me, but then, I don't cook, perhaps Anna liked them.

There is a book I have read recently, can't remember which one, where Anna is making bread late at night and Joey gives her the next weekend off because of it.Which is good but I confess the thought has just popped into my head about who did the cooking that weekend?


The incident you mention is in Coming of Age after Joey and family have entertained many Sunday afternoon visitors and completely finished all Anna's supply of cakes, twists and bread, so she has to turn to and make rolls for Monday's breakfast. (hb. page 120). But I've no more idea than you who did the cooking for Anna's weekend off - knowing her, though it's quite possible she left the basis of the meals ready, only needing to be heated up and served!


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 01:32 
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Caroline wrote:
Regarding Joey helping the school and the school helping Joey, various Swiss books have examples, one way and another. I think they saw themselves as a little community, with the San, and later joined by Biddy, Hilary etc. They were quite isolated, they helped each other out when needed. End of.


well, Joey does give them jam that Anna made :-) And poor Rosli ends up being the mother's help for Hillary and Biddy as well as Joey.

But seriously, yes, I know the relationship is a reciprocal one. It's just occasionally Joey comes across as a bit lady of the manor-ish. On the other hand, the school/Miss Annersley does rely quite heavily on Joey for help with difficult girls and situations and she always provides it.

Elder in Ontario wrote:
But I've no more idea than you who did the cooking for Anna's weekend off - knowing her, though it's quite possible she left the basis of the meals ready, only needing to be heated up and served!


Maybe they went to the school!

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 01:46 
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Caroline wrote:

I suspect being up that ladder gave her the privacy she might not have had elsewhere... probably quite a clever choice. Almost like having her own private apartment within the house.


I agree with this.

The kitchen and the other working areas become Anna's space. I can see that the kitchen was large enough to have a couple of armchairs close to the ubiquitous porcelain stove where one might sit in the evening (and at any spare moments during the day). Nox the cat and the budgie (canary? can't remember the name) hang out in the same area and are company. Anna can go to bed/get up without having to sidle past her employers plus she's isolated from any alarums/small children awake/whatever during the night.
And a good steep ladder or staircase mean that children can't insinuate themselves into your bedroom...

It sounds like a good choice to me


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 07:25 
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Things must have changed considerably in Tyrol by the 1950s, but, when Anna was young, maids had a hard time of it, and that's probably what she was thinking of. We see how hard even a nice, kind family like the Mensches expect their maid to work, and how Marie feels that she's really fallen on her feet by getting a job working for Madge.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 13:24 
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The departure of the School in 1938 must have had quite an impact on the local economy around the Tiernsee, what with the people they employed and the business they did with local suppliers.

I suppose the San carried on under new management, but wouldn't have had the international staff and clientele who would have brought money in.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 15:01 
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As for what happens these days.

One high - powered couple in London are advertising for a housekeeper to perform a multitude of tasks, working well over forty hours per week, including four hours on Saturday and the same on Sunday for £400 per week. The total time to work is actually over fifty hours per week.

Extra time if needed!

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A certain edge when she spoke of Mrs Maynard, certainly, but, after all, not everyone could love Joey.
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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey Goes to the Oberland
PostPosted: 27 Aug 2017, 16:40 
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JayB wrote:
The departure of the School in 1938 must have had quite an impact on the local economy around the Tiernsee, what with the people they employed and the business they did with local suppliers.

I suppose the San carried on under new management, but wouldn't have had the international staff and clientele who would have brought money in.


And with the advent of war, it's not like other employers would have taken the CS's place any time soon. Tough times indeed...


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