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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 21:14 
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Audrey25 wrote:
I loved Jem for that - a very nice husband.

Does Joey ever help Madge? The one time I think the opportunity was at least there was in the months before Ailie was born and Madge wasn't too well after Josette's accident, Joey took herself to Yorkshire for the whole summer. Robin, Daisy and the Highland Twins were all abandoned and Robin spending her last hols before uni!


Joey arguably helps Madge by her involvement in the school. I'm sure it was a relief when she filled in as a teacher in Gay from China and helped get Polly up to speed before that in Jo Returns, back when Madge was more involved with the school's running. She hosts tea parties and acts as mentor and that kind of thing. True she enjoys it, but ultimately it's all in benefit of the school and that ultimately is in Madge's best interests.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 00:01 
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ivohenry wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I loved Jem for that - a very nice husband.

Does Joey ever help Madge? The one time I think the opportunity was at least there was in the months before Ailie was born and Madge wasn't too well after Josette's accident, Joey took herself to Yorkshire for the whole summer. Robin, Daisy and the Highland Twins were all abandoned and Robin spending her last hols before uni!


She did take Sybil with her to Yorkshire, so took one child off Madge's hands. Can't remember where the twins went, but if Robin and Daisy were with Madge they'd have been able to help with the children, though by then most of them weren't very young. Sybil was 10, so David was about 12 and the Bettany crowd ranged from about 10 (Jackie) to about 14.


As far as I can see Sybil did a lot of running around doing errands on that holiday so not such a big sacrifice for Jo.

Madge had brought Joey up and done a heckuva lot for her. Unless Madge did not want Joey around, I think it would have been the kind, sisterly thing to stay near her pregnant sister who had been under a lot of strain.

Madge was confined to bed for part of the time Joey was away and had a seriously ill child. Robin and Daisy were capable but this was a time Joey should have been there. The triplets had bern sent to the Round House before the birth of Stephen . No-one expected Joey to be responsible full-time for the Bettanys but she should have stepped in here for the short time.

Also even allowing for the EBDisms (Sybil should actually have only been about 7 in a book where Jo was 24) Peggy and Rix were no-where near 14. Peggy was only 16 about five years later. Also older children can often need a lot more care than younger.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 00:11 
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mynameisdumbnuts wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I loved Jem for that - a very nice husband.

Does Joey ever help Madge? The one time I think the opportunity was at least there was in the months before Ailie was born and Madge wasn't too well after Josette's accident, Joey took herself to Yorkshire for the whole summer. Robin, Daisy and the Highland Twins were all abandoned and Robin spending her last hols before uni!


Joey arguably helps Madge by her involvement in the school. I'm sure it was a relief when she filled in as a teacher in Gay from China and helped get Polly up to speed before that in Jo Returns, back when Madge was more involved with the school's running. She hosts tea parties and acts as mentor and that kind of thing. True she enjoys it, but ultimately it's all in benefit of the school and that ultimately is in Madge's best interests.


Sorry for spreeing but doing this on phone.

Yes, Joey did help out with the school teaching but in both cases when it was in dire straights. Considering all that Madge had done for Joey and that she and Jem then kept Joey until her marriage, a total of a few weeks teaching was not too much to ask.

As for the tea parties and mentoring that was certainly not in Madge's best interests nor in the interests of the Chalet School. Joey took over and only succeeded in making Miss Annersley and the CS staff look as if they could not cope.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 18:45 
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Audrey25 wrote:
mynameisdumbnuts wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I loved Jem for that - a very nice husband.

Does Joey ever help Madge? The one time I think the opportunity was at least there was in the months before Ailie was born and Madge wasn't too well after Josette's accident, Joey took herself to Yorkshire for the whole summer. Robin, Daisy and the Highland Twins were all abandoned and Robin spending her last hols before uni!


Joey arguably helps Madge by her involvement in the school. I'm sure it was a relief when she filled in as a teacher in Gay from China and helped get Polly up to speed before that in Jo Returns, back when Madge was more involved with the school's running. She hosts tea parties and acts as mentor and that kind of thing. True she enjoys it, but ultimately it's all in benefit of the school and that ultimately is in Madge's best interests.


Sorry for spreeing but doing this on phone.

Yes, Joey did help out with the school teaching but in both cases when it was in dire straights. Considering all that Madge had done for Joey and that she and Jem then kept Joey until her marriage, a total of a few weeks teaching was not too much to ask.


I'm not onboard with the "all Madge did for Joey" argument. She stepped up, no doubt about it, and from a young age; however, Joey was a child. I don't believe parenting should come with those kinds of strings. My father pulled this on me, that I owe my stepmother for mothering me when I was a teenager, and I resent it. Like Jo, I was a child and had no say in who cared for me and how, and with very little agency to make my own decisions. Jo should help because she (luckily) can help. That's different from saying she should help because she owes her sister.

Audrey25 wrote:
As for the tea parties and mentoring that was certainly not in Madge's best interests nor in the interests of the Chalet School. Joey took over and only succeeded in making Miss Annersley and the CS staff look as if they could not cope.


They most certainly were in the best interests of Madge and the school. The girls are bound to talk about her, her parties, the one-on-one attention they get from the famous Josephine M. Bettany to their friends and parents. That word-of-mouth enhances the school's reputation. Jo is one of the best PR tools the Chalet School has. To us as readers she makes it look as though Miss Annersley and the CS staff look as if they could not cope; from the points of view of the characters themselves, Joey is a big help and they encourage her activities.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 23:49 
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mynameisdumbnuts wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
mynameisdumbnuts wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I loved Jem for that - a very nice husband.

Does Joey ever help Madge? The one time I think the opportunity was at least there was in the months before Ailie was born and Madge wasn't too well after Josette's accident, Joey took herself to Yorkshire for the whole summer. Robin, Daisy and the Highland Twins were all abandoned and Robin spending her last hols before uni!


Joey arguably helps Madge by her involvement in the school. I'm sure it was a relief when she filled in as a teacher in Gay from China and helped get Polly up to speed before that in Jo Returns, back when Madge was more involved with the school's running. She hosts tea parties and acts as mentor and that kind of thing. True she enjoys it, but ultimately it's all in benefit of the school and that ultimately is in Madge's best interests.


Sorry for spreeing but doing this on phone.

Yes, Joey did help out with the school teaching but in both cases when it was in dire straights. Considering all that Madge had done for Joey and that she and Jem then kept Joey until her marriage, a total of a few weeks teaching was not too much to ask.


I'm not onboard with the "all Madge did for Joey" argument. She stepped up, no doubt about it, and from a young age; however, Joey was a child. I don't believe parenting should come with those kinds of strings. My father pulled this on me, that I owe my stepmother for mothering me when I was a teenager, and I resent it. Like Jo, I was a child and had no say in who cared for me and how, and with very little agency to make my own decisions. Jo should help because she (luckily) can help. That's different from saying she should help because she owes her sister.

Audrey25 wrote:
As for the tea parties and mentoring that was certainly not in Madge's best interests nor in the interests of the Chalet School. Joey took over and only succeeded in making Miss Annersley and the CS staff look as if they could not cope.


They most certainly were in the best interests of Madge and the school. The girls are bound to talk about her, her parties, the one-on-one attention they get from the famous Josephine M. Bettany to their friends and parents. That word-of-mouth enhances the school's reputation. Jo is one of the best PR tools the Chalet School has. To us as readers she makes it look as though Miss Annersley and the CS staff look as if they could not cope; from the points of view of the characters themselves, Joey is a big help and they encourage her activities.


You do know that Madge was only 12 years older than Joey? She was only a child herself when they lost their parents. No-one is entitled to parenting from anyone apart from their parents., although it would be hoped someone would do it fron the goodness of their hearts. Obviously though it is a terrible shame for any child who is not loved and respected.

As for the tea parties, I would go absolutely out of my mind ballistic if any school to which I had sent my daughter, let her go to tea with some stranger. I can say I would have gone ballistic in 1950 and in 1960 too so not just because of the changes in society. If my permission had been asked, no, I would not have given it and just because Joey was an author made no difference.

Miss Annersley might have asked Jo's advice but it made her look weak when in effect she was a strong, sensible woman. Merely a plot device to bring Jo into the story.

The CS was a success before Jo was a famous author.

Maybe we are better to agree to differ. We have each given our views.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 08:58 
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Um, Joey was not "some stranger." Anyone who would refuse permission to their daughter to participate in her well-established and customary tea parties should not be sending said daughter to the CS. Jo is Madge's representative, the only member of the family that owns controlling shares in the school who is (virtually) on-site. I can't imagine that she doesn't feature as such in the prospectus as well as in her role as a Successful Alumna. The administration counts on her for pastoral care, particularly in cases that demand "unofficial" intervention by an adult. We know that Miss A is fabulous at never-bettered-behind-closed-doors communication and inducing weeping-like-a-waterspout, but for some students Jo's approach is going to be more effective. It's also an excellent back door, allowing the head to make allowances while maintaining her aura as Head-whose-discipline-shall-not-be-questioned. I don't think it makes the head look weak at all: rather, she's astute in reading what will work for whom, and making the best use of available resources.

(edited to insert the missing "be")

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 13:23 
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I think Joey is definitely stepping in to help the school in Joey Returns and Gay. In the first case, it's more purely helping the school (Madge has specifically banned Joey from returning home while the kids are ill). In the second, it's in part because Madge isn't able to handle things herself because of Josette's accident. And Joey has a nursing infant, which is a pretty good reason to not want to teach.

For the new-girl teas, there may have been some benefit to the school (and it was the school at that point, not Madge), but it was mostly something that Joey enjoyed doing, so as much for herself as for the others.

I'm not sure Madge would *want* Joey swooping in to help out when she was pregnant with Ailie, as an example. Joey's not a particularly restful person to be around, and she's somewhat emotionally volatile herself. So it's not clear that having her, say, move in to the Round House to help out would have been a help or a hindrance, particularly if what Madge really wanted was calm and quiet.

I do think that Madge went above and beyond when it came to Joey. She was twelve when their parents died, and it wasn't a given that she'd step into a mother role for Joey. Dick, for example, heads off to India for his career, rather than staying in England so he can help look after his youngest sister. The whole Chalet School scheme was in large part because Madge needed a way to earn money while looking after Joey. And Joey was not an easy girl to raise, with her health issues and temperament.

That might be part of the issue, though. Joey is used to being looked after by Madge, and her physical frailty and emotional volatility made that a difficult job for Madge. Even after she's reached adulthood, Madge (and Jem, and later Jack) have a reflex of looking after her, and making sure she doesn't overdo things. That kind of dynamic can be really strong in a family, without the people being particularly aware of what's happening. So Madge could be extra quick to leap in to help (like dashing to Switzerland when Joey faints), but not really think of asking Joey to help her. And in the reverse, Joey being looked after by Madge is a very familiar feeling, but it doesn't occur to her that Madge might need to be looked after in turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 16:43 
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It seems to me that EBD saw sibling unconditional love as the norm. Madge and Dick think the world of Joey - it would have been impossible for them to do anything other than the best for this beloved little sister. Look how EBD continuously emphasises the bond between the triplets, between Peggy and Bride, the Chester girls - there's no question of 'owing' where family is concerned.
We may not always agree from our reading of the books, but EBD considers Jo to be the Spirit of the School, first to last. And on the practical side, as someone has pointed out, she is one of the owners! We may not have wanted to go to one of her tea parties, but I think we should accept that in the CS world they are an integral part of beginning to belong to the school.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 16:56 
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Yeah, LucyP and Jennifer. Good points. I suppose we all support in different ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 17:53 
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Audrey25 wrote:
You do know that Madge was only 12 years older than Joey? She was only a child herself when they lost their parents. No-one is entitled to parenting from anyone apart from their parents., although it would be hoped someone would do it fron the goodness of their hearts. Obviously though it is a terrible shame for any child who is not loved and respected.


Yes, thank you, I have read the books and am indeed aware of that. That's why I said Madge "stepped up, no doubt about it, and from a young age." As for "no one is entitled to parenting from anyone apart from their parents," well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. My husband and I are happily without children ourselves, but we are guardians to our niece should something happen to her parents. If ever we need to assume that role, we will do so to the best of our abilities, and she will not owe us anything for it. Our niece is entitled -- yes, entitled -- to a stable, loving home, and my husband and I will put aside our own wants to provide it for her if that is what it takes. That is the lens through which I view Madge's parenting of Joey, one that is informed by my own values and life experience.

Audrey25 wrote:
As for the tea parties, I would go absolutely out of my mind ballistic if any school to which I had sent my daughter, let her go to tea with some stranger. I can say I would have gone ballistic in 1950 and in 1960 too so not just because of the changes in society. If my permission had been asked, no, I would not have given it and just because Joey was an author made no difference.


Then it would be your prerogative to remove your daughter from that school.

Audrey25 wrote:
Miss Annersley might have asked Jo's advice but it made her look weak when in effect she was a strong, sensible woman. Merely a plot device to bring Jo into the story.

The CS was a success before Jo was a famous author.


Again, you are looking at this from the point of view of a reader rather than as a character in the Chalet School world. Miss Annersley invites Joey's participation. Yes, from the reader's POV, this serves as a plot device; however, within the Chalet School universe itself, it sets Jo up as an ambassador for the school and that's a role that ultimately is in the school's best interest. I disagree that it makes Miss Annersley look weak when she obviously doesn't mind using Jo as a tool when it suits her.

Audrey25 wrote:
Maybe we are better to agree to differ. We have each given our views.


Indeed.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 19:16 
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Some of the posts on these discussions verge on techiness.

To be honest, Jo supports the school in the way she can. It may not always be for the best or in the way we would want but her love for the school - however she goes about showing it - shines through.

Now can we get back to discussing this book which is set away from the school?

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 00:14 
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Typically what I most enjoy about the summer books are the relaxed parts where nothing much is happening. In this volume, my favorite bit is probably the visit to the cave: such a typical family thing, having the stories you've heard come to life as you visit the sites of yore.

Professor Richardson absolutely wins a Worst Parent award, but I don't think being excited about space travel was that farfetched, given that we were fully engaged in the space race at that point. (Publication date: 1960, so well after 1957, the year Dad kept calling my new little sister "Sputnik." First human flight- Yuri Gagarin, Apr. 1961, and EBD's portrayal of the "certain country" recruiting Prof. R. was just what I'd expect in U.S. anti-communist propaganda.) Jo kind of disappointed me there with her insistence that it would be ages before spacecraft could reenter the atmosphere.

As for Joey and the cliff, it's pretty clear she didn't faint until AFTER the rescue: her typical pattern. Remember: "Mike saw you keel over, you know..." How is that possible, if he wasn't already topside? Just because Jo doesn't puff herself up over whatever role she played in the rescue doesn't mean she wasn't one of the "we" involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 04:48 
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Audrey25 wrote:
As for the tea parties, I would go absolutely out of my mind ballistic if any school to which I had sent my daughter, let her go to tea with some stranger.


I never really thought about it from the parent's POV but yes, one wonders what would have happened if a parent had said "I would rather meet Joey AND her husband first before my daughter is left alone with her."

Kathy_S wrote:
Um, Joey was not "some stranger." Anyone who would refuse permission to their daughter to participate in her well-established and customary tea parties should not be sending said daughter to the CS.


She IS a stranger to most of the parents. However well meaning Joey is and I agree the majority of the girls would love to meet her, she is still a stranger. Even if the parents know her reputation as a writer, that doesn't mean they know her.

However, there is no way EBD would consider that side of things. She considers Joey as part of the school and Miss Annersley actually makes that point sometimes. So, as a parent, if you entrust your daughter to the school, then meeting Joey is part of that. Who knows however whether that is made clear to the parents from the beginning.

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That's why I said Madge "stepped up, no doubt about it, and from a young age."


There was a guardian and he was in charge of all three. Dick, we know, was sent to boarding school. Was Madge as well? Because, if so, she would hardly have been there for the majority of the year when Joey was young. Or are we simply never told where she went to school?

I am not saying she wasn't a loving sister and the bond with Joey is very clear, but the actual practical side of taking care of baby Joey was left to the guardian.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 07:24 
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Joey is no more 'some stranger' than every single teacher in every single school to which we send our children....

The holiday books are my favourites in the entire series and this one is no exception.

Was Len really suggesting total redecoration of the cabin? I have always thought she meant a few jamjars of leaves and flowers dotted around....

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 09:34 
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cestina wrote:
Joey is no more 'some stranger' than every single teacher in every single school to which we send our children....


Sure, but most parents visit the schools, meet the teachers/principal etc before enrolling their child. They then entrust their child to the school to act in their child's best interests. And hiring and meeting new teachers is a perfectly normal part of school life and parents expect it.

Being farmed out to have tea with total strangers is not. So unless Miss Annersley says "oh, by the way, one treat for your daughter is meeting JM Bettany the authoress..." then the parents are left in the dark as to whom their daughter spends the afternoon with and moreover is encouraged to spill out their guts to.

And just because Miss Annersley regards Joey as part of the school and no different from meeting a new teacher, that doesn't mean the parents would regard it in the same light.

Quote:
Was Len really suggesting total redecoration of the cabin? I have always thought she meant a few jamjars of leaves and flowers dotted around....


I think it's more the attitude she takes that it's oh so horrible to have a plain bare place to live in. You don't go into someone's home and start criticising their decorating (or lack of) unless you know them really well. And even then, some tact is called for.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 10:22 
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Very few parents seem to visit the school beforehand. They tend to rely on recomendations from friends or chance meetings with the school.

In those days no one worried about child protection. They trusted the school to look after their child. With hindsight, this was not the best thing to do but that was what happened. When a neighbour of the school offered to take a group of new girls for afternoon tea, no parent would have objected. Remember, they were away from their family for the whole term so an afternoon away from the school would have made a pleasant break.


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 10:39 
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I think it may be an indication of how much detail we're given in the CS books that our discussions go into all this sort of thing - we have so much background information that we can go and 'stay' in that environment when we're reading, and experience it for ourselves to some extent.

But I can't think that any children's author of the period would have been worrying about how OK it was to show the characters going to tea with someone who was a part of the school founder/ owner's family - quite the contrary, as 'child makes friends with eccentric older adult (often a total stranger)' was such a trope of children's stories, if it isn't still.

And it is perhaps a little ironic that school is such a focus when we're discussing a 'holiday' book, but then once a CS girl, always a CS girl, I guess - lettered all the way through like seaside rock...


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 15:27 
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We used to go and have biscuits with the head's grandmother who lived next door - don't think that was official (can't remember if there was a gate or just a hole in the hedge into her garden) - my main memory of that school (left when I was 6 or 7) was her telling us how she had survived being on the titanic (that and my teacher killing herself - second part not very CS)


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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 16:42 
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Joyce wrote:
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That's why I said Madge "stepped up, no doubt about it, and from a young age."


There was a guardian and he was in charge of all three. Dick, we know, was sent to boarding school. Was Madge as well? Because, if so, she would hardly have been there for the majority of the year when Joey was young. Or are we simply never told where she went to school?

I am not saying she wasn't a loving sister and the bond with Joey is very clear, but the actual practical side of taking care of baby Joey was left to the guardian.


Great points. When I spoke, I was referring to the period after the guardian died, because I think 24 is a young age to parent a 12-year-old. Before that, yes, Madge being in boarding school would have made a difference. I've always assumed that Madge wasn't simply because I feel EBD would have had Madge mention her own experiences in the first few books -- seems like a natural thing to do in a story set in a boarding school. That's an assumption on my part though; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and all that. I do think there's a chance financial mismanagement meant the Bettanys couldn't afford boarding school for Madge as well as Dick though.

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 Post subject: Re: Books: Joey and Co. in Tirol
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 19:32 
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I wonder if Anna and Rosli were disappointed at the arrival of the Richardsons? They must have thought they were going to have a fairly quiet time with only Joey and Jack, the triplets and the new twins to cater for. Suddenly another three teenagers are on the scene and maybe Mike and Co coming back sooner than expected.

Would Anna have been given the chance to visit her own relatives? I expect that she was although I don't think it is ever mentioned or days off.


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Board index .:|:. Slogging at Lessons :: Books .:|:. Special Sixth
It is currently 22 Oct 2018, 07:22

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