Login   Register     FAQ    Members

View unanswered posts   View active topics


Board index .:|:. Slogging at Lessons :: Books .:|:. Special Sixth
It is currently 18 Jun 2018, 23:44

Forum rules


Please ensure that all posts are kept impersonal. Any posts involving an ad hominem attack will be edited or deleted. Please feel free to express your views, but expect that others may disagree with them. Please limit the use of the :oops: smiley as far as possible. Please do not PM another user to argue with them; if this happens, please can the recipient contact a mod. Language of gentlemen, chaps!



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 04:20 
Offline
Playing the competitions
Playing the competitions

Joined: 30 Jan 2004, 00:07
Posts: 951
Location: Taiwan
Is it ever said whether Joey and Jack are told about Margot's bookend incident? Because I would think that nearly killing a classmate in a fit of temper would result in no vacation trip to Australia for most parents.

If you look over the series, there is definitely a "dissolved in hysterical tears in the Headmistress's office" leniency clause. Thekla and the St Scholastica's girl don't dissolve into tears and are expelled, for attempted blackmail and writing anonymous letters respectively. Diana, after blackmail and vandalism, collapses in tears and is not expelled. Margot nearly kills a classmate in a fit of temper, and cries her way out of any punishment at all, other than a lecture.

And with Margot, it's got to be favouritism because of her family. She literally gets no punishment other than a private lecture from the Head, and the incident is covered up (with people outright lying about what happened!), so that she doesn't even have to face the disapproval of her peers. And a term and a half later she's made a prefect!

Even if Margot weren't expelled or suspended, at the very least she should be reduced in privileges for the rest of the term (no treats, must be under supervision of a mistress at all times), and maybe removed from her dormitory to sleeping in San. IE, she's not able to behave like a senior, so she won't get the privileges of one. Plus weekly tooth checks from matron for the rest of her school career.

And she'd definitely be off the table for a prefectship, let alone being allowed anywhere near the Games Prefectship.

_________________


Ring the bells that still can ring; Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything; That's how the light gets in
Anthem: Leonard Cohen



Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 06:30 
Offline
Being taken down a peg or two
Being taken down a peg or two
User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 15:45
Posts: 630
Location: Australia
jennifer wrote:
Is it ever said whether Joey and Jack are told about Margot's bookend incident? Because I would think that nearly killing a classmate in a fit of temper would result in no vacation trip to Australia for most parents.


Jack definitely knows because he takes care of Betty. And yes, a treat like a visit to Australia should have been taken away.

Quote:
And with Margot, it's got to be favouritism because of her family. She literally gets no punishment other than a private lecture from the Head, and the incident is covered up (with people outright lying about what happened!), so that she doesn't even have to face the disapproval of her peers. And a term and a half later she's made a prefect!


The whole incident is treated like a family affair and that's the problem. If one sibling hurts another at the family home then the parents hopefully can deal with it, and it seldom involves other people.

And EBD treats the incident in the same manner. But the problem is that it's NOT a family in-house manner. Margot has deliberately physically hurt another girl and at least one non-family member knows about it, so the subsequent coverup and lying involved looks like a protection racket. It's like when you hear on the news that the police department will investigate inhouse corruption - you know they won't find anything!

Miss Annersley is clearly far too close to the MBR clan. She visits them on holiday, she spends much of her free time in Joey's company, she has a direct phone line to Joey's house, she's known the triplets since birth, she's invited to family affairs like Peggy's wedding and she makes wedding presents for them like Daisy's. Do we ever hear of her making presents for any other OG?

Her objectivity is simply non existent. And therefore her ability to punish them is coloured by long association and is like a family member NOT a headmistress. They call her Aunt Hilda, for pete's sake!

Jayne wrote:
It's a shame as it could have been a really interesting story line - does the headmistress expel the daughter of the founder of the school. Of course she wouldn't have, but there could have been some suspense along the way - Joey and Jack hauled into school, telegrams to Madge and so on.


Much as I love the CS books, EBD did not have the skills as a writer to handle that situation.

That's why various fan fiction writers have done it for her! :-)

_________________
It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how - Dr Seuss


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 14:03 
Offline
Winning the dolls' house
Winning the dolls' house

Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 22:32
Posts: 1046
As well as EBD not having the writing skills to go into this incident deeper, she would not want to because it would put paid to the idea that Joey and Jack were the best parents in the world who knew exactly how to bring up and discipline their children to perfection. As it was any faults with Margot were always blamed on her disposition (and this could have been right) as opposed to their parenting.

I wonder if Joey and Jack could have done anything else. Were they too lenient or would nothing have helped. Could Miss Annersley have treated Margot differently in a way which might have helped?


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 14:47 
Offline
Escorting the new girls to Freudesheim
Escorting the new girls to Freudesheim
User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2004, 21:07
Posts: 3487
Location: Cambridgeshire
Read JayB's treatment of Margot in 'Stacey Benson's Reading Notes'.

This is set during 'Challenge', and Margot gets the treatment that she deserves from Nancy Wilmot who is Acting Headmistress.

That's what should have happened to Margot mush earlier in the series. Constant forgiveness means that the perpetrator comes to believe that his/her behaviour will always be forgiven.

_________________
Carpe diem, carpe noctem, carpe pecuniam et exe, celerrime.
A certain edge when she spoke of Mrs Maynard, certainly, but, after all, not everyone could love Joey.
'Life,' said Marvin, 'don't talk to me about life!'


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 16:18 
Offline
Getting into trouble with Mlle Berne
Getting into trouble with Mlle Berne
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 06:47
Posts: 286
Location: North Carolina, USA
Here's a link to the story Jennie mentioned: http://sallydennylibrary.co.uk/viewstory.php?sid=334

_________________
"I -- I didn't think!" -- Carola Johnstone


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 17:26 
Offline
Winning the dolls' house
Winning the dolls' house

Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 22:32
Posts: 1046
I will read this and thank you !

Edited to add - I have read now and thoroughly enjoyed. I don't think I have seen this before. For once, Margot getting what she deserved.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 18:11 
Offline
Rescuing a Junior from the lake
Rescuing a Junior from the lake
User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2004, 13:57
Posts: 7703
Location: Manchester
Sybil is never as bad as Margot, but she's the only other MBR girl whose behaviour and character are really criticised by EBD. I have a lot more sympathy for her, and for Madge and Jem, because I think Sybil's issues were largely due to the fact that the Russells had such a houseful, and none of them were to blame for that, but EBD hasn't. Like Deira, and to some extent Emerence, she's never as bad after her actions accidentally injure another person - but Margot doesn't seem to care. She seemed genuinely horrified when Mary-Lou made her realise just how badly she'd behaved towards Ted, but she just seemed to forget about that and carry on as she'd always done.

_________________
We really must stop eating like this ...

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

http://setinthepast.wordpress.com/




Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 20:54 
Offline
Stumped by Lower Four's quiz
Stumped by Lower Four's quiz
User avatar

Joined: 27 May 2006, 13:28
Posts: 995
Location: SE England
Thank you for the recommendation :D

I agree that Con comes out of this book the best, in that her storyline sets her a real challenge, which she rises to.

Len is very passive, in contrast. Things happen to her, rather than her driving the action. Given that since Mary Lou left, successive Head Girls have just been keeping the chair warm until Len is old enough to occupy it, there really should be a moment when Len steps forward to take charge in a school crisis so that everyone can say what a great HG she'll make when the time comes.

I think Con wasn't just shorter than the other two, she was also more slender, wasn't she? But I agree that the Fairy Godmother can look however the producer/director wants her to look.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 01:20 
Offline
Getting into trouble with Mlle Berne
Getting into trouble with Mlle Berne
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 06:47
Posts: 286
Location: North Carolina, USA
EBD probably thought she had covered Len's leadership qualities and Head Girl potential in "Leader of the Chalet School" (admittedly debatable).

I liked your story, too, JayB.

_________________
"I -- I didn't think!" -- Carola Johnstone


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 03:16 
Offline
Playing the competitions
Playing the competitions

Joined: 30 Jan 2004, 00:07
Posts: 951
Location: Taiwan
I think both Margot and Sybil suffered from parenting problems.

With Margot, it's a combination of her personality and parenting. She's a bit immature for her age, inclined to be lazy about schoolwork, and has a temper. She's spoiled as a small child, which makes the above worse. She's branded the "bad triplet" when really, her behaviour as a young child is not that outrageous. By age ten, she's very strongly expected to behave as if she were a couple years older, and told it's shameful to be in an age appropriate form. Then, a sequence of being bumped up a form mid-year, only to be held back the next year, ending up with skipping over Va completely.

What she really needed was steady discipline and reasonable expectations, and not being compared to her sisters. Basically, treat her as the girl she is (intelligent but immature), rather than the girl they want her to be (mature over-achiever).

Jack and Joey are held up as exemplary parents. They're not bad parents by any means - they care for their kids and want them to do well and be happy - but they have definite flaws. They tend to overburden the high performing, compliant kids with responsibility (Len and Steve), let the quiet ones drift along in their own world (Con and Charles), and are helpless in the face of active, strong-willed children (Margot and Mike). Margot is labelled intrinsically flawed, while Mike's behaviour is entirely blamed on lack of a sibling within a year of his age. The boys escape a bit by being at a school in another country, but the CS and Maynard family are so intertwined that the girls never escape their roles.

_________________


Ring the bells that still can ring; Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything; That's how the light gets in
Anthem: Leonard Cohen



Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 05:09 
Offline
Being taken down a peg or two
Being taken down a peg or two
User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 15:45
Posts: 630
Location: Australia
Audrey25 wrote:
Edited to add - I have read now and thoroughly enjoyed. I don't think I have seen this before. For once, Margot getting what she deserved.


I love this story particularly the fact that the other girls would feel guilty for 'telling' and getting Margot in trouble. Rather than understanding there are times when the schoolgirl code has to be broken and in this case it's in Margot's best interests she get a sharp lesson.

Alison H wrote:
Sybil is never as bad as Margot, but she's the only other MBR girl whose behaviour and character are really criticised by EBD.


Yes, and Sybil's big turning point moment of hurting Josette was a complete accident. And she was much younger than Margot is. And two young children should never have been left alone with a boiling kettle of water.

Despite this she is ignored by her father, cries herself sick and given a massive guilt trip by Joey which lasts for years. AND the whole darn school not only knows about it at the time but it's a story which is repeated to subsequent generations of girls.

Contrast with the treatment meted out to Margot who is years older and deliberately hurts another girl in a bad temper and it does show a distinct bias towards the Maynards.

Perhaps Margot is one of those characters who got away from EBD and she was not meant to be shown as all that bad but she is, and then EBD was not able to drag her back to being an essentially good person. Very like Jack Lambert.

_________________
It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how - Dr Seuss


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2018, 13:15 
Offline
Discovering that JMB lives next door
Discovering that JMB lives next door
User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2016, 13:46
Posts: 131
Location: West Midlands
mynameisdumbnuts wrote:
Here's a link to the story Jennie mentioned: http://sallydennylibrary.co.uk/viewstory.php?sid=334


This is a great story, and while I feel sorry for Margot, it is a much more realistic treatment of her. She does seem to get away with (attempted) murder while other girls are maligned for much slighter sins.

I think Joyce is right, Margot rather got away from EBD in later years, and didn't get the character development she needed. My feelings on reading this book are that EBD was no longer at the height of her writing powers, and shoehorned as many different plots as she could into it to try and keep the readers' interest. The result is very fragmented, and leaves little space for character development, apart from Con (who does shine in this story, much to my delight as she was always my favourite triplet).


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 00:23 
Offline
Annoying a Sixth Former
Annoying a Sixth Former
User avatar

Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 21:21
Posts: 617
Location: On the sofa
I've never quite felt that Margot hurt Betty deliberately. Yes, she threw a bookend at her - like Deira, years earlier, threw a stone at Grizel, and with similar consequences. But neither Deira nor Margot was really aware of what they were doing - Deira was absolutely livid about I-forget-what, and Margot was in pain and feeling very unwell. Of course, she should not have done it, but it was, I think, more accidental than she is given credit for. Had she grabbed her hairbrush, or a soft toy, no harm would have been done.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 02:56 
Offline
Playing the competitions
Playing the competitions

Joined: 30 Jan 2004, 00:07
Posts: 951
Location: Taiwan
Margot deliberately threw something - I think it was coincidence that it was a bookend rather than something like a book, or a pillow, or the inkwell.

It's different than Deira's case, where they were in a middle of a snowball fight, where the whole point is throwing things. She was mad, and didn't pay attention to the fact that she grabbed the wrong thing. However, not throwing things at people while studying in the library is something that the juniors would be expected to master, even in a temper, let along a sixth former.

_________________


Ring the bells that still can ring; Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything; That's how the light gets in
Anthem: Leonard Cohen



Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 03:46 
Offline
Being taken down a peg or two
Being taken down a peg or two
User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 15:45
Posts: 630
Location: Australia
jennifer wrote:
It's different than Deira's case, where they were in a middle of a snowball fight, where the whole point is throwing things. She was mad, and didn't pay attention to the fact that she grabbed the wrong thing.


Yes, exactly. Deira was angry and while she did mean to throw something at Grizel but she thought it was a snowball which they were ALL busy chucking at one another at the time.

Mrs Redboots wrote:
Margot was in pain and feeling very unwell.


Margot throws something in a wild temper. And the reason she is in a temper is because she refuses to admit she has a toothache. Yes, she's in pain but if she had just gone to Matron when the tooth started hurting it would have been fine.

And then we are told her fear of the dentist was inherited from Joey, similar to her ability to sing. That is an absurd thing to say and another example of EBD trying to shift the blame.

I don't think she meant to chuck a bookend, it just happened to be the thing at hand. But she IS responsible for why she is in a temper.

_________________
It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how - Dr Seuss


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 10:27 
Offline
Rescued by doctors
Rescued by doctors
User avatar

Joined: 20 Jul 2012, 13:07
Posts: 786
Location: Edinburgh
Mrs Redboots wrote:
I've never quite felt that Margot hurt Betty deliberately. Yes, she threw a bookend at her - like Deira, years earlier, threw a stone at Grizel, and with similar consequences. But neither Deira nor Margot was really aware of what they were doing - Deira was absolutely livid about I-forget-what, and Margot was in pain and feeling very unwell. Of course, she should not have done it, but it was, I think, more accidental than she is given credit for. Had she grabbed her hairbrush, or a soft toy, no harm would have been done.



Margot was in pain so?

I think we all have been in pain and not managed to chuck things at people....


Agree that it was unfortunate what she threw though.

_________________
Every life is both ordinary and extraordinary – it is the respective proportions of those two categories that make that life appear interesting or humdrum.
William Boyd//Any Human Heart


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2018, 13:23 
Offline
Rescuing a Junior from the lake
Rescuing a Junior from the lake
User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2004, 13:57
Posts: 7703
Location: Manchester
There are several incidents in the books - Jo in New House, Jo in Jo of (burnt tongue), Con Stewart in Eustacia, and I'm sure there are others - in which people are in a bad mood because they're in pain, and I'm sure we've all been there. Other people can really get on your nerves if you're stressed or just having a bad day, as well, if they don't know when to shut up and leave you alone. But you don't often hear of people throwing things at people at a school or workplace. It's more common to throw a soft toy or something like that at a friend/relative, as a joke, than to throw one in a fit of temper, surely.

I've been known to throw biros across the office :roll:, but I would never throw one directly at someone (sorely though I might be tempted!). Margot must be about 16 at this point. She would have been expected to have some sort of self control. Having said which, Jack never seems to learn to control his temper: he refuses to see Margot after the Ted blackmail incident, or Mike after the falling over a cliff incident, because he knows he can't control himself. It's very difficult having to live or work with someone like that - I wonder what Jack was like with the junior staff at the San.

_________________
We really must stop eating like this ...

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

http://setinthepast.wordpress.com/




Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 11:11 
Offline
Indulging in a midnight feast
Indulging in a midnight feast
User avatar

Joined: 21 May 2006, 16:51
Posts: 535
Location: Geelong, Australia
I think what would have made this book stronger would have been if EBD had taken Margot's reformation further; the way she did with Grizel in Head Girl. She has Margot's feet being turned in the right direction in Theodora and we can see glimpses of the continuation of Margot trying in Ruey and yet in this one, Margot is sent back to where she was before, only worse. It's like EBD couldn't let Margot fully reform. It would have made great reading seeing Margot struggle with her temper and succeed with controlling it and how she felt in the process. There was so much more EBD could have done with Triplets and their emotional/developmental journey and instead EBD went very formulaic with snow storms and a kidnapping etc.

I wonder if EBD realised her writing was failing and stayed with what she knew as she would struggled to write the depth that she had with her characters emotional/mental journey in the past? I think Theodora is her last book, where she did that really well and consistently throughout the book too. The rest show flashes, but that is all.

And I think Hilda should have had enough insight and courage to say she needed to step down as Headmistress, if she couldn't be as strict with the Maynards as she was with all the other girls. Hilda doesn't seem to think about the impact that has on the other girls. She certainly doesn't show the Bettany or Russell girls the same level of favouritism, she shows the Maynard girls.

BTW Betty is only as seriously injured, because Len pushes Margot's arm out of the way and the aim goes from the book landing on Betty's face to landing close to her temple.

_________________
You should live each day as though you are going to live forever and as though you will die tomorrow.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 13:09 
Offline
Winning the dolls' house
Winning the dolls' house

Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 22:32
Posts: 1046
If EBD had taken Margot's reformation the whole way I think she could have ended up as a serious head girl contender, maybe more so than Len who in her own newsletters EBD showed she really loved.

I don't know if EBD could write Margot any differently or if there was always destined to be a good triplet, a dreamy triplet and a bad triplet.

I also wish though EBD had completed the reformation of Margot.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Books: The Chalet School Triplets
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2018, 16:24 
Offline
Stumped by Lower Four's quiz
Stumped by Lower Four's quiz
User avatar

Joined: 27 May 2006, 13:28
Posts: 995
Location: SE England
Quote:
If EBD had taken Margot's reformation the whole way I think she could have ended up as a serious head girl contender, maybe more so than Len

I agree, Margot had the potential to be a much stronger leader than Len, if only she'd been able to overcome her faults.

I think life on the Platz was too restrictive for the triplets. They should all benefit from getting away to university, among people who haven't known them since they were babies, and having space to find out who they are, as opposed to who everyone expects them to be.

Quote:
I don't know if EBD could write Margot any differently or if there was always destined to be a good triplet, a dreamy triplet and a bad triplet.

There is a scene when the triplets are in their cradle when Jo describes their characters, isn't there?

I think Len was destined to be Head Girl from the day she was born, but either EBD didn't put the work into developing her character accordingly, or she, like Margot, refused to co-operate.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 61 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Board index .:|:. Slogging at Lessons :: Books .:|:. Special Sixth
It is currently 18 Jun 2018, 23:44

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group