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 Post subject: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 19:36 
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Like everyone else, I have enjoyed Aquabird's weekly summaries and it was a nice chance for me to familiarise with some of the books I haven't had the chance to read (or which I have surreptitiously read while 'on research' at the British Library).

I know that it's been suggested that we could discuss the series more generally, and one thing has particularly come to my attention as we travel through the series. Namely, that is the change in EBD's treatment of religion - or perhaps more to the point, her manner of discussing religion.

In the early books, Christianity is always present but it's seldom discussed so un-selfconsciously, at least not by the English characters. Madge only seems to speak of God on particularly special, unusual or profound occasions (i.e. the 'Falling asleep to wake with God', passage) and in when Jo tells Juliet that she will pray for things to come right between her and Donal in The Chalet School and Jo, we are told that it very seldom Jo speaks of her beliefs in such a way.

When Jo and EBD become Catholic, it suddenly seems that the main characters become far freer in terms of talking about God and their faith - a trait which seems to have previously been regarded as un-English and a particular trait of the Tyroleans, who are more innocent and unsophisticated in terms of their absolute faith. At this point though, it is still in the background. Tom, for instance, obviously has a deep-rooted and profound Christian faith, but she rarely vocalises this. Her suggestion of the group prayer in Bride Leads is uncharacteristic, for all that it is appreciated by her friends.

It is only in the Swiss years that we start to get constant references to God, the church, faith - or so it seems to me! Even in Mary-Lou, we see a change. In her titular book, she is shy of speaking about God to Jessica Wayne because 'such things run deeply with her', or a similar phrase. But by the time she meets Naomi Elton, she has famously 'never met an unbaptised person before'! (How did she know? Was she in the habit of asking everyone she met?)

The change seems very pronounced to me and I can only conclude that it reflects changes in EBD's own feelings about faith. I got to thinking about this because of AilidhNoor's new drabble about the Malory Towers girls at the Chalet School - basically, trying to remember if God or church or religion are topics ever discussed by the Malory Towers girls. I can only think of one example off the top of my head: Darrell's first weekend at school when Alicia tells her in church that two girls are 'frightfully pi'. And think of the fact that Mary-Lou and Len are essentially contemporaries of Lawrie Marlow, who in End of Term (1959) is genuinely amazed to discover that anyone believes in God at all!

Thoughts? I ought to apologise in advance for the fact that I'm quoting and referencing from memory, so there are likely to be many inaccuracies...


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 22:07 
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I've never really understood the bashfulness around "Help is always available -- if you ask for it." The girls go to service regularly, have their own chapels, say grace before meals, say prayers before bed and after waking up, allocate part of their money to church and hold a religious-themed Christmas play every year. What's more, the girls generally seem very enthusiastic about all these and genuine in their beliefs. Why is it difficult for one person of strong faith to say to another, "Have you tried asking God for help?"

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2018, 22:46 
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I think Tyrol must have been quite an eye opener for EBD. For someone from, say, Britain or the US or France, where you don't generally see outward displays of religion in public places, to go to somewhere where you see religious imagery/symbols in city centres, in the communal areas of hotels and outside people's homes, and where you get parades etc for saints' days, is a bit of a culture shock. I'd think she found it very interesting - and the same would have gone for Madge and Joey and the others.

It all seems much more natural in the early books. Grizel prays for help when she's stranded on the Tiernjoch in bad weather and thinks she's not going to make it, and asks Madge about death when someone actually is dying. Herr Braun says that bad weather is the will of God. It doesn't seem so natural to me later on. Would the entire school really have been so enthusiastic about giving up their pocket money to pay for chapels? The Mary-Lou baptism comment makes no sense, and would a supposedly intelligent 18-year-old girl really have been so shocked that not every person in her world had been baptised anyway? Don't Jack Lambert's gang form some sort of prayer circle when they've got lost?

And I find it hard to imagine someone quoting from the Bible during a school walk. The Reverend Mother in The Sound of Music :D quotes the bit about lifting up mine eyes - a senior nun trying to give encouragement to people fleeing the Nazis is one thing, but a school walk is another! I don't know that it's to do with EBD's conversion, because I would associate that sort of open talk about religion more with the American Bible Belt than with Catholicism, but there's definitely a big change. It's in some other EBD books too - notably the utterly horrendous Beechy of the Harbour School!

We see very little "practical religion", other than Christmas plays. I know that Easter, and events like confirmation, would have taken place during the holidays, but they're barely mentioned. And, apart from Mr Eastley, vicars/priests/ministers are only mentioned in passing - like the two who whizz round on a motorbike together because the CS girls can't possibly attend services in bad weather :lol: .

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 00:56 
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I am Church of Scotland so not very conversant with Church of England but surely to be confirmed a person would have to be baptised and Mary Lou would know if her friends/classmates were being confirmed so would know they had been baptised?

People "back then" were far more likely to play at least lip service to religion. I was baptised as were all my cousins. Up to the 1960s anyway the only people not married in Church were couples where the woman was already pregnant before marriage. They married in the registrar's office with the woman in a suit and, yes, it was, narrow mindedly, considered a disgrace. All funerals were religious.

In my 1600 pupil secondary school in the late sixties and early seventies, all pupils but RCs went to the religious assemblies. I remember once, a pupil who was unknown to me trying to get permission not to have to attend. Outcome unknown but It was the subject of much whispering and giggling by other pupils.

Mary Lou was only reflecting the views of her time.

Regarding religion in the CS I would have said it was a topic of discussion and practice the whole way through. I particularly remember the war years and the girls praying during the air raids, Tom leading prayers when Julie was so ill, the time when Jack was supposedly drowned. Also very much discussed in Jo to the Rescue by Joey, Jack and her friends relating to Phoebe's illness.

Religion was "seen" in certain parts of Britain, notably concerning the Free Church. Until fairly recent years people in the north of Scotland would not hang out washing or do gardening on a Sunday. Some people would not cook. In the western isles boats did not run on Sundays and there was huge controversy if they did. That might still be an ongoing thing. If anyone violated the rules it could affect their business life i.e. people withdrawing business from someone who did not go to church.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 18:05 
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I haven't read many of the Swiss books so I'm not best qualified to comment. However...

Having started reading the CS books as an adult, a few tears ago, I thought there was a lit of overt religious content. Admittedly the first one I read was And Jo, which has the passion play and so more of a religious focus that the others.

I think that the Tirol books do have quite a bit if religion but it tends to be in the background, whereas in the Swiss books the religious messages seem to be made clearer.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 18:30 
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I came from a staunchly-atheist family (I was withdrawn not just from religious asemblies at school but also from RS lessons). Most of my CS reading as a child was of the Tyrol and Armshire books and I don't recall thinking much about the comments on religion in those but I do recall feeling rather taken aback at the time about New Mistress and some of M-LT's comments in that. I read more of the Switzerland books as an adult (and by then a Christian myself*) and the religious aspects were much more apparent to me. Re-reading now the earlier books, I still don't pick up on the references as much as I do in the later books.

*It was 'doing' Reformation History at A-level and Tarfuffe for French A-level which led me to realise that I knew far more about religion in the 16th and 18th centuries and little about the tenets of Christianity which had shaped the culture of the 20th century which led me to sit down and read the Bible and then start attending churches out of curiosity initially.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 20:37 
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Actually, Audrey25, the Scottish island on which my brother lived until last year still had signs on the playing fields saying 'not to be used on Sunday'. When they first moved there (about ten years ago) my sister-in-law was taken to one side by a neighbour and told to not hang washing out on Sundays. My brother did the grass cutting for the council and again, not allowed on Sundays. Ceilidhs in the village hall were held on Friday night so there could be no likelihood of people wanting to carry on into the Sabbath, as they might if it were Saturday. When I was a child visiting my grandparents in the Highlands there was no TV, radio or playing out on Sunday. We were allowed to read, so I was happy, but my grandmother always checked what book it was. Victorian literature for children was acceptable, so Dickens and Louisa Alcott were the usual ones for me. I am atheistic myself, but never minded the religion in the Chalet books - just like I still loved my grandmother, who was a very narrow-minded member of the Free Presbyterian church.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 01:24 
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That's interesting Supersal. I didn't quite know where they had reached.

In Rescue I love the comparison Frieda and Jo make between the happy, sparkling Tyrolean Sunday and the quiet, peaceful English one. Made me so nostalgic for another age and the Tyrolean Sunday such a contrast to the dour, drab one of those times in some parts of northern Scotland and the western isles.

I didn't really notice that the religion in the Swiss books was any different. If it was, just typical of the Switzerland era where a lot is more extreme - even Joey at times - and laid on with a heavy hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 08:22 
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The Oberland in the 1950s would have been very Calvinistic, but that doesn't really come across in the way that the Catholic culture of inter-war Tyrol does ... but then they have very little to do with the local people in the Swiss books.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 13:01 
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Supersal wrote:
Actually, Audrey25, the Scottish island on which my brother lived until last year still had signs on the playing fields saying 'not to be used on Sunday'. When they first moved there (about ten years ago) my sister-in-law was taken to one side by a neighbour and told to not hang washing out on Sundays. My brother did the grass cutting for the council and again, not allowed on Sundays. Ceilidhs in the village hall were held on Friday night so there could be no likelihood of people wanting to carry on into the Sabbath, as they might if it were Saturday. When I was a child visiting my grandparents in the Highlands there was no TV, radio or playing out on Sunday. We were allowed to read, so I was happy, but my grandmother always checked what book it was. Victorian literature for children was acceptable, so Dickens and Louisa Alcott were the usual ones for me. I am atheistic myself, but never minded the religion in the Chalet books - just like I still loved my grandmother, who was a very narrow-minded member of the Free Presbyterian church.


That pretty much describes my childhood Sundays growing up in a small Yorkshire town in the 60s (apart from the Victorian books). My mother, who was a church-goer, but not overly religious, would never do any housework, washing or shopping on a Sunday - and of course nearly all the shops were shut on Sundays in those days.

As an adult and committed Christian, although I do quite often watch TV on Sunday afternoons, I would never do any washing, housework or routine shopping on a Sunday. (I did once buy some toilet rolls, because I ran out!) But that is personal choice, even though I'm now working full-time.

To be honest, part of me wishes that there weren't so many shops open on a Sunday, especially since it means staff need to work rather than spending time with their families. (Staff at my local Tesco have told me that it's in their contract that they have to be prepared to work Saturdays or Sundays, and I think that's pretty standard in the retail sector these days.)

I recognise that for retail staff at least, it has become a fact of life. (I once stopped a job interview half-way through when it became clear that I would be required to work every Sunday, which I was not prepared to do, because of my church commitments.)

The essential services of course fall into a different category. Having said all of that, I've reluctantly accepted that Sunday trading is a part of modern life and everyone has the right to choose to shop (or carry out any other legal activity) on a Sunday. At the end of the day, it comes down to necessity or personal choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 16:33 
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That's interesting, Cal, and I commend your commitment. Alas, although I'm a staunch Catholic who goes to Mass every day, not just Sunday, SLOC and I do our weekly shop immediately after Sunday Mass - out of necessity, I admit - but, since every day is spent with the Lord, I don't feel I'm doing wrong, and the rest of Sunday is a quiet, peaceful one, as were my childhood Sundays. Many of our parishioners lead busy lives on a Sunday, but it's not my job to make others feel guilty, as Sunday may be their only day free to do things. (I'm not inferring you make others feel guilty, by the way, Cal! :twisted: )

Sundays at the CS were also said to be quiet, gentle times, although I wonder if some of the girls found it a tad boring sometimes, especially if they weren't brought up in any faith and were not used to it. I'm sure getting out for some exercise would have helped, and also some input from the staff occasionally. But I never found the references to faith in the books wrong or out of order - it was a normal part of my life, so why not theirs? As to ML's comments, I felt they were just part and parcel of who she was and how she had been brought up.

It would be interesting to know what cestina and other boarding school girls on here did at school on Sundays.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 17:12 
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Sundays were actually quite fun and I can't remember any restrictions being put on our activities. If you were already confirmed you went to early service for communion every other week.

After breakfast you wrote your compulsory letter home, and then everyone went to 11 o'clock Matins.

A better-than-normal lunch was followed by whatever you wanted to do really. Our boarding house had a play-reading group, we played games, danced to the wind-up gramophone, rehearsed the Christmas panto, sat around in the garden in the summer, or went out with parents or friends and their parents.

The only nasty thing was that in the early evening came the reckoning on how you had behaved during the week - known as "deportment". This encompassed everything from being too noisy, bad table manners ie not offering your neighbour the butter, not making polite conversation at table, running when you should walk, being told off in college itself. You name it, you could be marked down for it. If you had been particularly good you gained points. We were split into competitive groups and our points total led to the group doing better or worse than the others and your group leader could make things very unpleasant for you if you had caused the group to lose marks.

These confrontations ruined many a pleasant Sunday evening....

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 20:53 
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I actually like how Tom's religious beliefs are handled in the St Briavel's area. I'm thinking in particular of Julie's illness in Bride Leads, and Tom asking if they could pray for her. One, she's a vicar's daughter and does a lot of work for the church and voluntary work in general, so good works are a big thing for her, and two, it's not OTT and I do think it is in character - it just comes across as a lovely gesture by someone who's frightened for her friend and wants to do something to help. This is also the book where Tom realises her calling and that she wants to work with kids in deprived areas, and Julie's illness follows on from that. In modern terms she'd be a youth worker or something like that.

I do find it a bit much in the Swiss years. I read the books as an atheist as a teen, and as a convert to Judaism as an adult. I'm not sure what EBD's take on Jews was, though she certainly wasn't an obvious anti-Semite. It doesn't bother me too much in the early books because to be fair, Tyrol was very Catholic. I think it still is.

Supersal, I have a mate from Belfast and she says the DUP have been known to chain up swings in parks on Sunday so kids can't play on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 21:08 
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It's the attitude towards Naomi that I struggle with. If Naomi had been Jewish or Muslim or any other recognised faith, I think that EBD and the characters would have respected that, but no respect is shown towards the fact that she is agnostic, and no-one acknowledges the fact that she is as entitled to her beliefs as someone who is Catholic or Protestant or anything else.

I think her aunt was at fault for sending her to a school which had a strong Christian ethos and where girls were expected to attend Christian services, but I still don't like the attitude.

On the other hand, the attitude in the early books, Joey attending Mass etc, at a time when sectarianism was strong and most people wouldn't have dreamt of setting foot inside a place of worship belonging to another denomination, is really lovely, unusually so for the times. I don't know how realistic it was, but it sounds lovely!

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 10:50 
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I wonder how the Passion Play would have been portrayed in the Swiss books. As it is, the play in itself is taken seriously and some of the girls are very affected by it, but you also have the incident with Evade and Co dressing up as Red Indians - can't imagine that would have happened in the Swiss era.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 12:40 
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Alison H wrote:
It's the attitude towards Naomi that I struggle with. If Naomi had been Jewish or Muslim or any other recognised faith, I think that EBD and the characters would have respected that, but no respect is shown towards the fact that she is agnostic, and no-one acknowledges the fact that she is as entitled to her beliefs as someone who is Catholic or Protestant or anything else.


I found the Naomi situation badly handled as well. The girl felt God had failed her and no longer believed He existed. I sympathised with her a lot because, although I was never a strong Christian, things happened and I never believed he cared or that it was for a plan.
Mary-Lou's suprise at meeting someone who had not been baptised was a bit over the top, except, of course we need to remember her friends were CS girls who would have been.How she knew was another matter.
Preaching at her was not an answer,and the Swiss books at times did become overly religious, obviously echoing EBD own feelings.I used to skip those bits if they got a bit much.
Sending a disabled, agonistic Naomi to a christian based school in the mountains was never going to be a good plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 14:30 
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cestina wrote:
Sundays were actually quite fun...

The only nasty thing was that in the early evening came the reckoning on how you had behaved during the week - known as "deportment". This encompassed everything from being too noisy, bad table manners ie not offering your neighbour the butter, not making polite conversation at table, running when you should walk, being told off in college itself. You name it, you could be marked down for it. If you had been particularly good you gained points. We were split into competitive groups and our points total led to the group doing better or worse than the others and your group leader could make things very unpleasant for you if you had caused the group to lose marks.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: That's so appalling, cestina, I love it! And people complain about what went on at the CS!!!! :roll: Ay de mí! The staff must have had eagle eyesight to notice you not offering the butter or not making polite conversation. Thanks for answering my query.

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 15:08 
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MaryR wrote:
The staff must have had eagle eyesight to notice you not offering the butter or not making polite conversation. Thanks for answering my query.

Oh it wasn't the staff - they had very little to do with it. Each junior was paired with a senior at table and you moved round the table daily so that you sat between different seniors but always opposite the same one. Middles usually counted as juniors, depending on numbers. But it was the seniors and the prefects at the top and bottom of the table who had the input into the deportment marks.

You were not allowed to ask for anything to be passed to you. So if you needed jam for your bread it was permissable to say to your neighbour "Would you like some jam?" even if they clearly had it smeared all over their bread already but if they did not respond "No thank you, would you?" then you went without jam. They of course, in their turn, would lose deportment points, senior or not....

A new table list went up every Sunday night and being paired with a decent senior for the following week made life much easier so that was something else that informed Sunday nights....

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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 15:14 
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Why is it rude to ask for something to be passed to you?


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 Post subject: Re: Religion: changes through the series
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 18:03 
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Lotte wrote:
Why is it rude to ask for something to be passed to you?

I think originally the focus was probably the other way round - it was considered good manners to take care of your neighbour at the table. If they were actually asking for things then the opportunity for the other to display good manners was gone.

Both sides got into trouble, the one for not offering - that was also carefully monitored - and the other for requesting something.

To reach across for the salt, say, was also taboo, even if it was only a little way off.

ETA It is clear from Ysenda Maxtone Graham's book "Terms & Conditions: Life in Girls' Boarding Schools, 1939-1979" that we weren't the only school to be plagued by this idea!

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