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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 02:05 
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I think the Gays are poor in the "sending our daughter to boarding school is a financial stretch" sense, but are willing to sacrifice for a good education. But it's definitely poor relative to other CS girls, rather than poor in a worried about paying the rent or a bout of illness spelling financial disaster sense.

My mom was the daughter of a parish minister, and back in those days, congregation members dropping off food was still an accepted part of the salary, in addition to the terrible salary. Their accommodation was provided, and public school was the standard for education in Canada (ie, no school fees), but my grandfather certainly couldn't afford to send his kids to university. Four of the five did go on to university education, but they had to work and pay their own way through.

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 10:12 
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I'm new to the boards here, so catching up on this thread!

I know that many independent schools (both day and boarding) offered reduced fees for daughters of the clergy - or in some cases no fees, especially for church schools. It's highly likely the CS would have done the same - especially when they moved to the UK, as a CofE country (presumably the same offer wouldn't have been needed in Catholic countries)!

The mystery that's always bugged me is in one the later books (I'm not at home typing this, so haven't got my copies to hand to check which), where Joey pounces on a book at one of the sales saying she owes Mollie Bettany a copy as she spoilt hers by tearing out all the illustrations when she was in India. She even adds that she had a good reason at the time for doing so. I've tried to think of any possible good reason for tearing all the illustrations out of somebody else's book and can't think of one! I may have to remain frustrated, unless the missing India manuscript turns up, where presumably all would have been revealed!


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 10:35 
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Welcome to the CBB :D .

It's mentioned in Two Chalet Girls in India, one of the fill-in books, but I'd also like to know EBD's version :lol: .

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 12:16 
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Jennie wrote:
Parish priests were not well-paid in those days. They still aren't.

Lorna Hill goes into this in her Vicarage Children series, iirc. I recall the family struggling to provide a dress for the pretty elder daughter to wear to what was, I think, her first grown up party - rather like Meg in Little Women.

Vicarages were often big, old, difficult to heat houses. And clergy families were expected to do or provide certain things that couldn't all come out of parish funds - Vicarage tea parties, donations to worthy causes, suitable frocks and hats for Vicar's wife for formal occasions.

The Gays did have an advantage in that Tom was an only child. When she went to school aged eleven they could say that, barring surprises, they had ten years or so of education/training to fund. Unlike the Maynards, who when the triplets left school were still facing fifteen to twenty more years until Marie Claire was likely to finish full time education - assuming no more babies.


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 12:41 
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Slightly OT, but in Problem it's mentioned that the Gays moved to a place with a better 'living' (I assume that meant that they received a higher income than their previous parish). When did the Church of England start paying their clergy a wage instead of every 'living' having different payments?

I assume that the 'living' dates back to the tithes (great and small) given to the Church and the farming or leasing of the glebe lands.


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 14:46 
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I assume that the 'living' dates back to the tithes (great and small) given to the Church and the farming or leasing of the glebe lands.

Tithes are a very hot topic in English church history. The person with the right to collect the tithes was the rector. The rector had the right, if he wished, to appoint a vicar to do the job of looking after the parish on his behalf. (Vicar strictly means something like deputy or substitute.) The rector paid some or all of the tithe to the vicar.

A lot of monasteries were rectors. At the Dissolutions, when the monastic properties were sold off, so too were the rights to collect tithes, which fell into the hands of laymen, who then had the right to appoint the vicars for those parishes for which they were rectors. Hence the situation seen in Jane Austen, of the family living being held for the younger son (Edmund Bertram) or protege (Wickham), and the importance for a young clergyman (Mr Collins) of acquiring a patron (Lady Catherine) with a number of livings at his or her disposal.

'Lay rectors' were disapproved of because they could pocket most of the tithe and just pay the vicar a small amount.

Also, some parishes were so small and poor the tithes could never produce enough to support a clergyman, especially if he was married with a family. He'd need a private income, or an additional source of income. I think Dorothy L. Sayers' father took in pupils/ran a small school for a time. Or alternatively hold several livings, but that was also frowned upon, since obviously he couldn't be in more than one place at a time on a Sunday.

(Probably more than anyone ever wanted to know about clergy incomes.)


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 15:20 
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Thanks for that info, JayB, it's a very clear explanation of something I've never quite got to grips with. Where does the curate fit in, as in Trollope's curates who do all the donkey work while the incumbent goes off hunting?
Whoops, slightly off-topic here...


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 15:25 
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I still find it ridiculous that Mrs Gay says that the Gays used to be poorer than the Lilleys (who, incidentally, were probably extremely offended at being described as poor), and that, due to this poverty, they could only afford to send Tom to the British branch of a private boarding school, which Ros could never have dreamt of without the scholarship, rather than to the Swiss branch. OK, the Gays were probably not well-off compared to the families of Tom's friends, but Mrs Gay using the expression "very poor people" in the same breath as talking about sending her daughter to a Swiss finishing school, to Rosamund, just really annoys me.

I think the mystery there is how a vicar's wife was so out of touch with the lives of her parishioners! Saying they were poor compared to the families of schoolfriends, fair enough, but not compared to the general public.

Lorna Hill's got various characters who attend schools for reduced fees because their dads are vicars.

And the term "livings" always makes me think of Lady Catherine de Bourgh, Colonel Brandon, Mr Darcy etc, with their "valuable family livings" to dispose of, as well :lol:.

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 16:58 
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Alison H wrote:
I still find it ridiculous that Mrs Gay says that the Gays used to be poorer than the Lilleys (who, incidentally, were probably extremely offended at being described as poor), and that, due to this poverty, they could only afford to send Tom to the British branch of a private boarding school, which Ros could never have dreamt of without the scholarship, rather than to the Swiss branch. OK, the Gays were probably not well-off compared to the families of Tom's friends, but Mrs Gay using the expression "very poor people" in the same breath as talking about sending her daughter to a Swiss finishing school, to Rosamund, just really annoys me.

I think the mystery there is how a vicar's wife was so out of touch with the lives of her parishioners! Saying they were poor compared to the families of schoolfriends, fair enough, but not compared to the general public.

Lorna Hill's got various characters who attend schools for reduced fees because their dads are vicars.

And the term "livings" always makes me think of Lady Catherine de Bourgh, Colonel Brandon, Mr Darcy etc, with their "valuable family livings" to dispose of, as well :lol:.

I grew up as a country vicar's daughter in the 1960-70s and our lives were far more like Rosamund's than Tom's! It was the local schools for us, no thought of private school, either day or boarding. We lived in a huge Victorian mansion with about 10 bedrooms, all of which were freezing as we could not afford to heat the place on Dad's income. In winter we would heat the dining room and kitchen and live in the two rooms most of the time!
Of course the local kids all thought we were rich cos we had such a big house, and living in the country there were a lot of manor houses with rich families who had kids at boarding school. We were expected to mix with them in the holidays just like being 'Vicarage children' back in the old days, but we came off worst there too as they all expected us to have ponies, and be brilliant at lacrosse........we actually had hamsters and played tennis badly, with two second-hand racquets!

In those days you could get a grant for university, means tested, and you didn't have to pay it back like today's loans. Only way I got to Uni was because Dad's income was so low I got a full grant and was classed as one of the poorer students, which meant I even got priority student housing.

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 18:42 
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LucyP wrote:
Thanks for that info, JayB, it's a very clear explanation of something I've never quite got to grips with. Where does the curate fit in, as in Trollope's curates who do all the donkey work while the incumbent goes off hunting?
Whoops, slightly off-topic here...

It's something I've taught so many times I can probably do it in my sleep. :D

The curate assisted the rector or vicar. He was likely to be a young man just starting out in his career. There's a curate in The Murder at the Vicarage. In Persuasion, Henrietta Musgrove and Charles Hayter want their elderly rector, Dr Shirley, to retire and appoint Charles as his curate, so they can get married. Dr Shirley would still get the tithes, and he'd be expected to pay Charles Hayter.

Alternatively, if a church isn't a parish church in its own right, but is a chapel subordinate to a parish church, the clergyman will be a curate. I think Haworth wasn't a parish in its own right, but was subordinate to Bradford, and Patrick Bronte was the curate, not vicar or rector.

(On topic - what were Dick's real presents in Jo Of? And do we assume that it was Molly who actually chose the dress fabrics for Madge, Jo and Robin?)


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 20:13 
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miss_maeve wrote:
Vic Coles - I always tought Vic was a boy, purely because of the name Vic. Victoria always got shortened to Vicky in my mind - plus there was a RL Victoria who was always known as 'Vixen' but I suspect that particular shortenening wouldn't fit too well into EBD land :mrgreen:

Although there are a lot of boyish short names for girls in the Chalet School, so who knows?


Despite being an actual female Vic, I never thought Vic Coles was a girl
. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 22:22 
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JayB wrote:
LucyP wrote:
Thanks for that info, JayB, it's a very clear explanation of something I've never quite got to grips with. Where does the curate fit in, as in Trollope's curates who do all the donkey work while the incumbent goes off hunting?
Whoops, slightly off-topic here...

It's something I've taught so many times I can probably do it in my sleep. :D

The curate assisted the rector or vicar. He was likely to be a young man just starting out in his career. There's a curate in The Murder at the Vicarage. In Persuasion, Henrietta Musgrove and Charles Hayter want their elderly rector, Dr Shirley, to retire and appoint Charles as his curate, so they can get married. Dr Shirley would still get the tithes, and he'd be expected to pay Charles Hayter.

Alternatively, if a church isn't a parish church in its own right, but is a chapel subordinate to a parish church, the clergyman will be a curate. I think Haworth wasn't a parish in its own right, but was subordinate to Bradford, and Patrick Bronte was the curate, not vicar or rector.

(On topic - what were Dick's real presents in Jo Of? And do we assume that it was Molly who actually chose the dress fabrics for Madge, Jo and Robin?)


I know its unlikely but could it have been something to do with Dick marrying or Peggy and Rix being born?Peggy and Rix did not happen for another 13 months but EBD had a year's gap from the end of Jo of and beginning of Princess and might have got confused!

Dick might have been the kind that thought the birth of his children would rank as a major present for his sisters!


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 23:06 
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Dick had only got engaged during the term just ended, hadn't he? They're probably not even married yet at Christmas.

I don't know why they needed additional presents anyway, the frocks seem quite good enough on their own, especially as Dick's about to get married and will have his own household to keep. In my family, the frock would have been your big present, with an annual and other bits and pieces to go with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2017, 23:19 
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JayB wrote:
Dick had only got engaged during the term just ended, hadn't he? They're probably not even married yet at Christmas.


My explanation was dubious and the Bettany twins were certainly not born for another year. Bearing in mind there was a year's gap between Jo of and Princess and EBD could already have been planning Princess , could she just have mixed up her dates? Unlikely I know!


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 03:35 
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dvsdab wrote:
Joey pounces on a book at one of the sales saying she owes Mollie Bettany a copy as she spoilt hers by tearing out all the illustrations when she was in India. She even adds that she had a good reason at the time for doing so. I've tried to think of any possible good reason for tearing all the illustrations out of somebody else's book and can't think of one! I may have to remain frustrated, unless the missing India manuscript turns up, where presumably all would have been revealed!


In the fill-in book, it's because Mollie's students are reading the book but Joey needs the pictures for a play she is writing. So they tear the pics out to give to Joey.

I love how Joey doesn't replace the book for more than 20 years!!

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 04:02 
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dvsdab wrote:
The mystery that's always bugged me is in one the later books (I'm not at home typing this, so haven't got my copies to hand to check which), where Joey pounces on a book at one of the sales saying she owes Mollie Bettany a copy as she spoilt hers by tearing out all the illustrations when she was in India. She even adds that she had a good reason at the time for doing so. I've tried to think of any possible good reason for tearing all the illustrations out of somebody else's book and can't think of one! I may have to remain frustrated, unless the missing India manuscript turns up, where presumably all would have been revealed!


EBD herself does explain this when she says that "...[Jo] tore them out because she was lending to a very conceited young man and did not want him to find out what kind of book it was."

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 05:19 
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KB wrote:
EBD herself does explain this when she says that "...[Jo] tore them out because she was lending to a very conceited young man and did not want him to find out what kind of book it was."


if anything that makes it even more confusing :D

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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 13:53 
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If I remember rightly there's a really good cross-over drabble that provides an explanation for this!


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 14:09 
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There is, it's a crossover with Thursday Next but I cannot remember what it's called


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 Post subject: Re: Great Mysteries of Chalet School land
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2017, 15:19 
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I know the thread has moved on, but I can't do quotes...so thanks JayB for the curate explanation, crystal clear.
Has anyone brought up the mystery of where Biddy is between leaving Austria and the restart in Guernsey?


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