Login   Register     FAQ    Members

View unanswered posts   View active topics


Board index .:|:. Slogging at Lessons :: Books .:|:. Lemon Biscuits & Liberty Bodices
It is currently 20 Nov 2017, 10:35



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 03 May 2017, 18:44 
Offline
Presenting your school report
Presenting your school report
User avatar

Joined: 13 Aug 2009, 18:41
Posts: 2704
Location: Czech Republic and Herts UK
claire wrote:
Maybe it was left to 'my eldest grandson' - was meant to be Rolf (but not named) and as he had died Steven, once he arrived, became the eldest grandson

Oh that's clever Claire :)

_________________
Cestina's dolls houses - "I'm a train..."


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 03 May 2017, 19:24 
Offline
Taking the train home
Taking the train home
User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2012, 16:53
Posts: 2624
Location: West London Alps
Isn't it? And the triplets were probably born before their grandmother died.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 03 May 2017, 20:47 
Offline
Dashing off for your part in the play
Dashing off for your part in the play
User avatar

Joined: 13 Nov 2005, 11:17
Posts: 1011
Location: Cumbria
That is an ingenious solution, Claire.

Noreen wrote:
Isn't it? And the triplets were probably born before their grandmother died.


Quite possibly. We aren't told when she dies. Joey and Jack spend the August before the triplets' birth at Pretty Maids but it just says:

Quote:
And Jo and Jack had spent most of August at his people’s home, Pretty Maids, in the New Forest.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 04 May 2017, 05:17 
Offline
Indulging in a midnight feast
Indulging in a midnight feast
User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 15:45
Posts: 537
Location: Australia
cestina wrote:
claire wrote:
Maybe it was left to 'my eldest grandson' - was meant to be Rolf (but not named) and as he had died Steven, once he arrived, became the eldest grandson

Oh that's clever Claire :)


was Rolf still alive when his grandmother died? so why not just name him?

Unless it was left to Jack's oldest son which would have sucked if they kept having girls. :D

It can happen though - I know a family with 6 older girls until a boy came along and then two more girls after that. I asked idly once why they had to have a son and it was to do with an inheritance.

Cheers,
Joyce

_________________
It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how - Dr Seuss


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 04 May 2017, 06:18 
Offline
Admiring Tom's latest effort
Admiring Tom's latest effort

Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 22:32
Posts: 851
Rolf was dead years before old Mrs Maynard. I seem to remember reading he was 13 when he died about six years before the start of the war.

I had always thought, because of the piece in one of the Swiss books about the triplets and Stephen inheriting money from old Mrs Maynard, that she must have died about the time of Rescue. However, it is Bob who dies in Rescue and both the older Maynards are dead before Goes to it.

EBDism in there somewhere!


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 04 May 2017, 09:51 
Offline
Taking the train home
Taking the train home
User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2012, 16:53
Posts: 2624
Location: West London Alps
'My eldest grandson' even squares with the fact that Mollie (Maynard) is said to have two daughters (the younger's birth is announced in Goes to It) at this point. :D

These daughters of Mollie's don't match up with the seven children she talks of much later, in Reunion - they include an eldest boy and twin girls, all of whom are older than the triplets, but that really is an EBD-ism. The perils of back-filling!


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 04 May 2017, 10:03 
Offline
Indulging in a midnight feast
Indulging in a midnight feast
User avatar

Joined: 25 Feb 2007, 15:45
Posts: 537
Location: Australia
Noreen wrote:
'My eldest grandson' even squares with the fact that Mollie (Maynard) is said to have two daughters (the younger's birth is announced in Goes to It) at this point. :D

These daughters of Mollie's don't match up with the seven children she talks of much later, in Reunion - they include an eldest boy and twin girls, all of whom are older than the triplets, but that really is an EBD-ism. The perils of back-filling!


Cue race between Jack and Mollie to have the first son :D

Cheers,
Joyce

_________________
It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how - Dr Seuss


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 05 May 2017, 13:58 
Offline
Castor Oil!
Castor Oil!
User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006, 17:54
Posts: 544
Aquabird wrote:
I think she'd have got on with life all right - she's said to be starting to come round a bit by the time Fiona arrives at Plas Gwyn. She'd likely have a difficult pregnancy with the grief and stress, but I think by the time she'd had Stephen and recovered from the birth she'd have come to terms with things enough to cope. I could see her having to downscale from Plas Gwyn and Daisy having to move back to the Russells, but I certainly don't think she'd move back in with them herself, although I think she would definitely rely on them more for advice. Robin might put off going to Oxford for a year or two until the triplets were old enough for Kindergarten, but after that I think Jo would insist she go. AI don't see much changing where her involvement with the school is concerned.


I agree with all of this. Jo might even have gone back to the school to teach.

If Madge invests the Bettany inheritance (such as it is) in the CS, Joey would be entitled to a share of the profits wouldn't she? As her money was also being risked?


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 06 May 2017, 22:55 
Offline
Admiring Tom's latest effort
Admiring Tom's latest effort

Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 22:32
Posts: 851
I think Jo would still have gone to Switzerland even if Jack had died. I think it would have been a year later though when the triplets were nearer 12. The triplets would spend an extra year at the English Branch in Carnbach and Stephen could go to the Cathedral School at Armiford as Rix and David did.

I am presuming Jo would still also have gone to Canada for at least part of the time. She might even have gone sooner when Madge had her twins.

I am also presuming Madge still moved out of the Round House. Joey would probably have been offered a home with them either in a wing of the new house or in near by accommodation but I doubt if she would take up the offer wanting to keep her own independence.

With her children no longer at home, her sister not so accessible, the school in Carnach/Switzerland, Robin and Daisy both gone, Jo would find Plas Gwyn no longer so appealing. She would have few happy memories of Jack there as he was only ever on leave when he stayed there.

With the school, old friends, her daughters in Switzerland and her desire for mountain air re-awakened by Canada, I think Jo would have moved to Switzerland.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 07 May 2017, 08:55 
Offline
Spending time in the san
Spending time in the san
User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2004, 08:41
Posts: 498
Location: Manchester
By the time the school was thinking about moving to Switzerland, Jo could well be married again. I'm away from home and can't check, but it must be a good seven years? And she would still only be in her early thirties.

Another doctor? Would EBD have written one of the men the school meets as suitably single "marriage material"?

I think, after the initial grief and collapse, Jo would have coped as well as any other war widow and just got on with things. The interesting think about how people treat her later in the series is that they seem to assume she can't cope and dose her / pack her off to bed etc., but actually when a crisis strikes, if she is allowed to cope, she does it just fine. Two hour faint excepted, of course...


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 07 May 2017, 11:04 
Offline
Being a disappointment to Miss Annersley
Being a disappointment to Miss Annersley
User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2004, 21:57
Posts: 576
Location: UP NORTH
If Jo re-married I think it would have to be a widower with children - possibly a doctor or a war hero. I'm not sure I can think of any occasions when Jo 'coped' as she usually takes to her bed, complains about it but meekly obeys instructions.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 07 May 2017, 21:26 
Offline
Admiring Tom's latest effort
Admiring Tom's latest effort

Joined: 19 Sep 2011, 22:32
Posts: 851
If Jo did go to Canada when Madge and Jem were there she might even meet a doctor also at the Conference. I am aware it was Jem and not Jo attending the Conference but there might have been an opportunity.

I cannot see Jo remarrying in the earlier years of her widowhood. I also think she would want to wait until her children were away from the very young stage but who knows?


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 07 May 2017, 21:30 
Offline
Rescuing a Junior from the lake
Rescuing a Junior from the lake
User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2004, 13:57
Posts: 7292
Location: Manchester
If Carey Christy had conveniently died, maybe when her son was born, Jo could have paired up with Michael and lived in "the Big House" :D . Although Hilda might have been jealous ...

_________________
We really must stop eating like this ...

Minds are like parachutes - they only function when open.

http://setinthepast.wordpress.com/




Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 07 May 2017, 22:10 
Offline
Remove to Inter V
Remove to Inter V

Joined: 29 Dec 2009, 15:11
Posts: 402
I can see Joey becoming somewhat of a Tragedy Queen - the fatherless triplets and the little boy that his father had never seen - whilst Madge and other members of the family actually shouldered the burden and looked after the children. I would like to think that Jem would have given her a reality check and made her realise she was only one of the many war widows who had to cope with their loss and carry on for the sake of their children. I'm not sure that this would have happened and can see her escaping into her writing.

If she re-married, I can see it being to a widower who has no family but would treat Joey's children as his own.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 01:22 
Offline
Finding out about the Sale
Finding out about the Sale

Joined: 30 Jan 2004, 00:07
Posts: 837
Location: Taiwan
Joey's pattern throughout the series is bursts of energy followed by collapse. As a schoolgirl, she rushes off to rescue people, but this is usually followed by either a serious illness, or being kept to bed for a period of time until her nerves recover. In Exile, she nearly faints during the picnic episode, and collapses once they get home (getting engaged to Jack in the process). After the flight from Austria, she collapses and is nightmare ridden, with Jack seriously worried about her. She collapses during the boat trip from Guernsey, and wakes up a day or so later, in bed. Those are very stressful situations, mind you, but Joey is the only one who falls over completely. She collapses when Jack is thought to be drowned. In later books, it's usually Joey getting over tired due to a teething infant, or a move, or recently having twins with a difficult pregnancy and childbirth, and over doing things generally, and Jack stepping in and sending her to bed for a few weeks with a special diet to recover, while the hired help and various family and friends look after the family.

So it's hard to picture how Joey would learn to adapt without the safety net - if it were her and the kids and she had to do it herself. Would she learn to self monitor and conserve her energy? Would Madge and Jem take over from Jack and look after her? Or would the kids learn that they had to take care of Mama and themselves when she was overstressed or poorly? The latter dynamic can often happen in divorced family where the parent falls apart and the eldest kid takes on a parental role, and I can see Len in that role, not at three years old, but as she gets older.

In EJO's Abbey books, Joy is widowed with twins (also lots of money, an estate and an extensive staff, so finances aren't an issue). Being the poor widowed lady Marchwood definitely sets back her maturation. Her friends and family are quick to excuse her selfishness and lack of maturity, she immerses herself in her music and the twins (spoiling them rotten in the process) and doesn't really have to consider anyone else other than herself.

_________________


Ring the bells that still can ring; Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything; That's how the light gets in
Anthem: Leonard Cohen



Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 13:05 
Offline
Spending time in the san
Spending time in the san
User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2004, 08:41
Posts: 498
Location: Manchester
Isn't it interesting, though, that in an emergency Jo generally responds well, rushing to the rescue, shouldering the burden, stepping up to the plate, whatever. It's only afterwards, when other folks become involved, that beds and dosing etc. comes into the mix (and I don't think we can hold it against her that she almost dies after falling through the ice or gets a respiratory illness from being caught in the mist on the Tiernjoch, given her history with pneumonia etc.).

How much of that is actually her collapsing once the need for heroics is over and how much of that is other people expecting her to collapse and almost preempting it? Are they allowing her to cope?

I'm not saying here that she isn't subject to emotional strain, because she obviously is, but I do find the picture of her presented on parts of this thread doesn't chime with my idea of her (And she is the heroine of the series, of course she's going to be the centre of attention when something dramatic occurs - that's where EBD wants her to be...).


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 13:50 
Offline
Castor Oil!
Castor Oil!
User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2006, 17:54
Posts: 544
I think it's a bit harsh to say Joey would have made a career out of being a widow and wallowed in her misery. I don't think there's any evidence to support that - she is shown to be grieving after Jack dies but it's not long after he has died. Nowadays she'd probably be diagnosed as depressed. I think she would have pulled herself together in a couple of months or so.

The comparison with Joy is interesting because Andrew really has died, and Joy is allowed to wallow for ages. But I don't think Joey would be like Joy because she's consistently portrayed as much more compassionate and aware of others. I suspect that if Jack had died Joey would also have married again - maybe Kester Bellever who's definitely a sex symbol of the Armishire years :wink:

I think she might have thrown herself into her writing, but as a means to supplement her income, not to ignore those around her.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 16:03 
Offline
Promising to do better
Promising to do better

Joined: 17 Nov 2011, 02:45
Posts: 773
I don't see Joey remarrying. She got to know Jack over a long period of time as a near-family member - it was a very gradual process in which she did not see him as a "romantic" interest but just a good friend. Effectively, Joey did not think of marrying and when she did, it was to an old and close friend. I see the widowed Joey thinking very much the same way - not being interested in remarrying or in romance - but this time, not having the opportunity for someone to get within her guard.


Equally, I don't see her moving to Switzerland. If Jack had died then it seems probable that she would have gone to Canada with Madge, both for the sack of Margot's health and as a companion to Madge. This means that she's never have gone to Carnbach so there would have a significant break in her dealings with the CS. She'd have been another parent who comes down once-a-term to the public events albeit able to catch up with old friends who are teaching. Then the Triplets would not have gone to Switzerland until they were thirteen or fourteen. Joey doesn't have personal close friends amoung the Glendower House staff so her visits will resemble the ordinary parents even more. Plus her contemporaries amoung the teaching staff - the people with whom she was at school (Grizel, Mary Burnett, Gilian Linton, Hilary Burn possibly)- have all left by this time.

Once the Triplets go to Switzerland there's still Stephen to consider. I can't imagine that anyone would chose to move leaving a 10-year-old at prep school in another country unless there's a pretty good reason. By the time he's 13 and off to public school (and is now generally considered old enough to be in a country where his parent is not) the Triplets will be 16 - in 2 years time they will back in the UK anyway and are unlikely to return to Switzerland after university. Stephen is hardly likely to be too enthusiastic about spending holidays where he has no friends and there is little to do so that by the same time he'll be spending the holidays with schoolfriends in the UK. By this time, Joey will be very distanced from the CS by time and habit, she'll have friends and a social life in Armishire, and her family (Dick, Madge and families, plus Daisy and Primula)
are there in the UK

I can see Joey going to the Oberland at the Coming-of-Age and even buying a holiday home, to be shared like the Yorkshire home with her family, and for her to holiday there regularly with members of the Quartette and their families. But Switzerland where she'd be reliant for companionship on people who are working long hours and who are not there in the holidays, where she doesn't know the younger members of staff at all and where she doesn't have a natural "in" with the only other large instituation in the area would seem to be a poor choice.

Incidentally, if Jack dies, Reg Entwhistle doesn't get to be a doctor....


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 16:54 
Offline
Beginning of term speech
Beginning of term speech
User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2014, 13:26
Posts: 425
I don't see any reason at all for Joey to go to Switzerland. She went there because Jack was to be Head of the new San, and she was quite reluctant to make that move. Without that reason, and if not remarried, I think she'd have stayed in Wales and remained involved with the British branch of the school.

If she did remarry, then presumably she would live wherever her new husband's job required. It is unlikely, in that situation, that she would have been in a position to up sticks and move to Switzerland.


Top | End
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 20:07 
Offline
Admiring Tom's latest effort
Admiring Tom's latest effort
User avatar

Joined: 18 Aug 2009, 19:18
Posts: 871
Location: Hampshire
I don't think she'd collapse, apart from immediately after Jack's death. I suspect she'd do as thousands of other young widows did and struggle on, because there wasn't much of an alternative.

I've never understood why Pretty Maids wasn't taken over by the government or some institution - like The Ministry of Red Tape and Sealing Wax in the Barsetshire novels. The New Forest is strategically placed for invasion plans so maybe Eisenhower would have set up his HQ there; Beaulieu, also in the Forest, was an SOE training school. This would mean that the house was occupied during the war, probably had central heating put in, and reasonably maintained. Jo could move there after the war and set up a small residential school for delicate children (because of Margot) - employing any number of suitable Old Girls.
Stephen would get a scholarship to Winchester College and later learn estate management and the triplets would go to Glendower House.

The only problem with that is that it's a long way from Madge but that might not be a bad thing. And she'd have lots of places to take the children in the school holidays - and much more welcome than if she'd had to trail eleven of them! And she could ask Grizel to join her, not to mention Elizaveta, and any other stray CS people. #chaletschoolcomune

_________________
http://nicolaslade.wordpress.com/


Top | End
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 95 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Board index .:|:. Slogging at Lessons :: Books .:|:. Lemon Biscuits & Liberty Bodices
It is currently 20 Nov 2017, 10:35

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group