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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 21:12 
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Jo could have paired up with Michael and lived in "the Big House" :D . Although Hilda might have been jealous ...

Oh no, if Carey is out of the picture, Michael is definitely Hilda's! :D

He's the wrong religion, anyway. Plus, if Jo remarried, would she want more children? Michael Christy already has three or four, depending on whether his son has been born when you kill off Carey. Anyone who married Jo might think taking on the four she already has would be quite enough.

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Would Madge and Jem take over from Jack and look after her? Or would the kids learn that they had to take care of Mama and themselves when she was overstressed or poorly? The latter dynamic can often happen in divorced family where the parent falls apart and the eldest kid takes on a parental role, and I can see Len in that role, not at three years old, but as she gets older.

Initially at least, I think that role would fall to Robin. But I should think Madge wouldn't let Jo become too dependent on Robin.
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Jo could move [to Pretty Maids] after the war...

Pretty Maids didn't belong to Jack when he 'died' - Bob was still alive - so it wouldn't belong to Jo. I suppose Bob might leave it in trust for Stephen when he came of age, but I don't suppose he'd leave it to Jo outright.

Maybe Jo might think of moving back to Guernsey after the war? She'd have close friends there. The girls could go to Glendower House, or to Switzerland, if she could afford it, and Stephen to school in England somewhere.

Or maybe back to Devon, where she lived as a child, and where she'd be close to Dick and Mollie.

Once the school has gone to Switzerland, she doesn't really have any roots anywhere. Like she said, home for her was where Jack and the children were.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 22:08 
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Someone - sorry, can't remember who the distinguished author was! - did once start a drabble about this scenario. It got as far as Jo moving to Switzerland with the school, and Gottfried being head of the San there.

When Commander Carey died, Len insisted that Mary-Lou would have to give up university to babysit Doris ... but Doris then conveniently died as well. The crux of the matter is very possibly whether Robin would have been expected, or expected herself, to give up university to stay with Jo.

I think Jo would manage a lot better if everyone didn't try to look after her. She started off being the one who was always off rescuing people. Then, the minute she got engaged, she changed. The Jo we see clinging to Jack's arm and being a lot more of a hindrance than a help on the escape from Tyrol is a very different person to the one who went chasing off after Grizel, Elisaveta and Maureen in their respective hours of need.

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 08 May 2017, 22:24 
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The crux of the matter is very possibly whether Robin would have been expected, or expected herself, to give up university to stay with Jo.

I would like to think that Madge and Jem wouldn't allow it. They are her legal guardians, so they could insist that she goes to university. Anyway, if she didn't go, she'd be liable to be called up. I don't think by this time her health is delicate enough to exempt her; she's been perfectly fit ever since they left Austria.

What might suit Jo would be to houseshare with another young widow with small children, or a young mother whose husband was overseas. Or perhaps one of the younger school staff could lodge with her and be company. Rosalie, perhaps. Not Grizel.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 10:49 
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JayB wrote:

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Jo could move [to Pretty Maids] after the war...

Pretty Maids didn't belong to Jack when he 'died' - Bob was still alive - so it wouldn't belong to Jo. I suppose Bob might leave it in trust for Stephen when he came of age, but I don't suppose he'd leave it to Jo outright. [/quote]

If the house was entailed to the next male heir ie Stephen, Jo could move there with the whole family. Presumably there was some money, even with death duties, so taking on the house would make sense and give Jo a project.
I've always felt she was far too dismissive of the family's tradition when she encourages Jack to get rid of the place. Stephen, depicted as a calm, responsible boy, might well have gone into estate management and done a Longleat or Woburn Abbey, in a small way. Though probably not with lions in the park.

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 09 May 2017, 14:19 
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If the house was entailed to the next male heir ie Stephen, Jo could move there with the whole family.

If the house was entailed, Jack couldn't have given it to the NT.

If there ever was an entail, the most likely thing is that Bob and Jack agreed to break it after their father died. Bob presumably didn't expect to have more children to inherit. Once Bob was killed, there wouldn't be another opportunity until Stephen came of age, assuming the law regarding entails wasn't changed.

Possibly Bob and Jack both knew they would never want to live there. They both had their careers, which they couldn't pursue from Pretty Maids, and neither of their wives wanted to live there.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 03:57 
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It would depend a bit on timing - Jack and Bob would have to work all that out between Exile, when their father is still alive, and the events in Highland Twins. Once either Jack or Bob died, they'd be stuck until Stephen came of age, and if they both died, wouldn't they have to wait until both Stephen and his heir came of age?

What would a family do if they literally couldn't afford to pay the death duties, and the property were entailed?

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 10:35 
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I think Armishire very much became Joey's home and a place associated with happy memories of Jack and the children. I really think that's where she put down roots, and she would have stayed in the general area if Jack had died.

By the time Madge and Jem went to Canada she would have been there for about ten years, and by the time the school moved to Switzerland about twelve or more years, so I think she would have regarded it as 'home' and not just a place near the school and her older sister's house.

I really think she'd have been happiest staying there, and being closely involved with the English branch of the school. That is, of course, if she didn't re-marry.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 13:33 
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I wonder whether Pretty Maids being handed over "lock, stock and barrel" to the NT/Government could be read to mean that it was on long-term loan rather given into ownership? This would allow it to be entailed yet financial responsibility to be with someone other than the Maynards.

Like Jennifer, I prefer the idea of a broken entail. Bob was a career soldier and, with war approaching, he must have considered that he might be killed (and possiby Jack too). Given there's been one set of death duties relatively recently, I can see a scenario that goes:
Old Mr Maynard dies. Bob manages the death duties but only by morgaging the income from the farm(s). Come the war, Bob and Jack realise that there is no way that another set of death duties could be found so the entail is broken.
It is agreed that the estate is willed to Jack (so he remains the heir) but Bob can sell a farm (or whatever) to clear the debt and to provide for Lydia in the event of his death.

This would mean that, had Jack died first, Bob would need to rewrite his Will and he has a "free choice" as to the disposal of the estate. However, being of strong family spirit, he leaves Pretty Maids to Stephen (being the senoir branch of the remaining family).


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 10 May 2017, 20:39 
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If Jack had died, it was not long before Stephen was born, and didn't Bob die of his wounds when Jo and co were in Yorkshire and Stephen was a baby? Seems unlikely they'd have bothered with the complicated and long-winded problem of breaking the entail once the war had started - and if old Mr Maynard was still alive - can't remember - I should think he'd have been appalled and hurt if they'd set about it before the war.
Whether the house was on loan or simply taken over for the duration, the occupying body would have maintained the place as far as possible and, as I said, a house and estate in the New Forest would have been too valuable strategically for it not to be taken over. At Beaulieu, it was houses on the estate that were used for training and residential purposes, and possibly the big house too.
After the war Jo could have moved into a smaller house on the estate/in the village and let the main house, which would have helped with finances while she started to write in earnest. Or, as post war the housing shortage was acute, they could have set up the big house as a guest house and the faithful Anna could have run it. (Which would have been a picnic compared to the alternate reality of looking after eleven children, plus umpteen free-loading guests.)

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 11 May 2017, 16:17 
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What if, after Bob's death, Pretty Maids devolved to baby Stephen - but with death duties and whatnot, Jo couldn't really manage the property herself, and this coincided with the school happening to move, so that instead of going to the island, the school ended up at Pretty Maids - thus also providing a convenient excuse for Jo to remain involved, because the school is now operating out of the house she controls on Stephen's behalf.

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 11:57 
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I forget what book it is mentioned in but Jo apparently could not live at Pretty Maids on a long term basis because the air did not suit her - too relaxing or something! The triplets could also be affected in the same way. This was used as an excuse as to why the Maynards could not live at Pretty Maids at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 15:24 
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What is actually meant by the air being relaxing? I've never understood that, and haven't travelled enough to compare 'air' as opposed to air temperature...


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 15:32 
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It was discussed here.

Funny how it never seemed to be an issue when Jo stayed there in the holidays before Head Girl. Sounds like an excuse not to move away from Armishire to me :lol:. Which is understandable, as Madge and her friends are there, not to mention Jack's job.

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 16:50 
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LucyP wrote:
What is actually meant by the air being relaxing? I've never understood that, and haven't travelled enough to compare 'air' as opposed to air temperature...


I am not so sure about relaxing air either.

I do remember though reading an autobiography years ago about somebody living temporarily near a beach. She was an actress. She hadn't been well and decided to go for a walk at the beach when recuperating. It was so bracing she nearly collapsed.

Going back to relaxing air, in the Abbey books the reason for Rosamund going to live at the Hall is because she was badly affected by the relaxing Wycombe air, as was Jen for the first few days every term when she went back to school from the Yorkshire moors.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 12 May 2017, 17:58 
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I am interested that apparently no one else on the board has ever been in a place where they felt constantly under the weather. There is good reason for that phrase to have been coined I think....

It is how I have always interpreted the "relaxing" but to me it just means feeling generally below par, so not actually a positive feeling which the word "relaxing" might imply.

And after all, if seaside and mountains can be bracing, and people visit them specifically for those qualities, why should not other types of environment be the opposite?

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 02:56 
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I've definitely had the experience of a climate affecting my energy levels - humidity has a noticeable effect, for example (it's currently 83% humidity out, and it's not even raining). And when I come back from a vacation in summer, I feel terrible for a few days until I adjust to the temperature and humidity (9 hours jetlag doesn't help either).

When I visited the UK last year, I was out for a country walk on a day which was very sunny, but it had rained recently. I did notice that lower areas had less wind and higher humidity compared to being up on a hill, and thought of relaxing air.

But declaring that you can't live somewhere because the air is too relaxing definitely comes from a place of privilege. Most people don't have the luxury of quitting their jobs, selling their houses and moving somewhere solely based on a more pleasant micro-climate. The rest of the population just puts up with it.

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 12:29 
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Does Jack express any preference about Pretty Maids? It is his family home after all.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 15:00 
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I was going to say that he probably didn't get a say :lol:, but maybe he was glad of the excuse. History's full of tales of second sons who, because their elder brothers died young (or, indeed, abdicated to marry women deemed unsuitable), had to give up their own plans to do their family duty and take the hotseat, but there must have been plenty of heartache behind it. It would have been hard on Jack to give up his career as a doctor, in which he was involved in research which was literally helping to save thousands of lives, to go and run the family estate, which we never hear him express any interest in.

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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 13 May 2017, 21:03 
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jennifer wrote:
What would a family do if they literally couldn't afford to pay the death duties, and the property were entailed?

You were allowed to pay off the death duties over several years, so your family lived as frugally as possible while every spare penny went to pay off teh horrendous debt.

ETA: As for bracing/relaxing air, I grew up on the South Coast, but every year we went on holiday to the East Coast, where the air was thought to be more bracing. And we always had boundless energy there, and insatiable appetites - not that we didn't at home..... and I am shortly off to the Alps (yes, we are going to the Achensee, among other places) and longing for it, as I always feel so very well there.


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 Post subject: Re: If Jack Had Died
PostPosted: 14 May 2017, 10:17 
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Alison H wrote:
It would have been hard on Jack to give up his career as a doctor, in which he was involved in research which was literally helping to save thousands of lives, to go and run the family estate, which we never hear him express any interest in.


I agree. But one of his sons, nephews, daughters or nieces might have been interested down the road, so it might have been an option to keep the estate running via a manager and keep it in the family for another generation to inherit.

After all, between them, he and Molly have 18 kids! Surely on of them might have been interested to take it on.

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