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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 02:59 
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Noreen wrote:
It seems a bit unfair to me that it's awarded for heroics only since coming to Switzerland, but (a) there were a great many more valorous deeds in the early books (and a fair number of them were down to Joey) and (b) it would perhaps seem a bit odd to be awarding school medals for something that happened thirty years and more ago...


Perhaps because, in the previous books, the girls may well have been awarded medals as Guides, but since there are no longer Guides at the school, EBD comes up with this other prize.

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 05:18 
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Joyce wrote:
And where does the Gillian Culver comment come in? Was it cut from the paperbacks? That's really interesting.

Cheers,
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I can't remember which book, but KB or Jenefer probably will. I do remember it was said in conjunction with voting for someone at a later stage and the girl in question couldn't think of who to vote for, but Gillian had helped her the previous week in Prep, so put her name down. Very realistic, I thought

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 07:59 
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Joyce wrote:

Basically it is EBD plugging up a plot hole by having Miss Annersley say that even though Prunella saved Margot's life she didn't fulfil other conditions i.e. she wasn't helpful. Wow! that's a lovely thing to tell the girl in front of the whole school.


That scene makes me cringe. Poor Prunella! Why mention her at all, if she was getting the prize?

The Margot Venables Prize is interesting because it's the only major thing that is actually decided by any sort of democratic process involving the whole school. I know they vote for things like who's responsible for emptying the inkwells, and the prefects vote amongst themselves for who gets different jobs, but this is a prestigious prize and the voting process involves the whole school. They get no say in who'll be Head Girl, and they don't even have auditions for parts in the play - the staff decide who gets which role, and it's no wonder that someone like Yseult, who is keen on acting, feels aggrieved at not even being given a chance to show what (they think!) they can do. Still think that the Electoral Commission should have been called in to investigate the supposed 100% vote for Mary-Lou :lol: ...

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 10:50 
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Alison H wrote:
The Margot Venables Prize is interesting because it's the only major thing that is actually decided by any sort of democratic process involving the whole school.
....
Still think that the Electoral Commission should have been called in to investigate the supposed 100% vote for Mary-Lou :lol: ...


Which is why when the prefects bypass the process and gives it to Jo, it demeans the prize in some way.

And the conversation in Excitements when Joey says she can think of a winner straight away and everyone says "Mary Lou" pretty much sets up the scene for later on when 'everyone' votes for her.

I love the 100% voting thing - it's just so North Korea :D Even in China they have the decency to pretend by having another person in the running even though they have no chance of winning.

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 15:00 
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I think the bravery medal and the MV prize are two different things,as suggested earlier in the thread.That perhaps makes it more of a puzzle why they say poor Prunella didn't qualify for helping Margot, she didn't have to be helpful, just brave, to get the medal.

It was always obvious that ML would get the MV prize from as soon as Joey brings it up singing her praises,even though EBD has Hilda not saying it would be, we all knew it would be.However the 100% voting, as well as wrong, is also unlikely,not everyone would like ML.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 16:44 
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Terrygo wrote:
I think the bravery medal and the MV prize are two different things,as suggested earlier in the thread.That perhaps makes it more of a puzzle why they say poor Prunella didn't qualify for helping Margot, she didn't have to be helpful, just brave, to get the medal.

.

The bit about Prunella not qualifying was in the context of the MV/JM prize, not the medal. Can't remember where in which book, but think it was a couple of books before the medal was first invented.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 20:58 
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Maybe some people didn't want Margot to be saved :devil: :devil:


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 00:34 
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I don't read Does It Again very often as I am not too keen on it and I don't read Kenya very often either so I am not very up on what went on with the rescues/falling into lakes.

I thought Does It Again had a silly plotline but it wasn't the fact that Prunella wasn't a totally honest character at the beginning that stopped her from getting the award, was it? I would not have thought so, so what did stop her?

Regarding Mary-Lou, I had been going to say that even if she had been the nicest, most perfect person someone would have disliked her even if only because they were jealous. In Mary-Lou's case she probably had rubbed people up the wrong way. However, back then at any rate there were nice, genuine girls with leadership qualities who were also kind and caring who were liked by everyone. I knew one and I think everyone would have voted for her in something of this nature.

So, although I think it was unlikely in Mary-Lou's case, I do think it was possible for everyone to have voted for the same person.

The 100% vote? It goes without even saying that Mary-Lou did not vote for herself. I've known of similar votes a long time ago and you were told not to vote for yourself. EBD would have assumed her readers knew this and that it was a 100% but for one vote.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 03:08 
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Audrey25 wrote:
I thought Does It Again had a silly plotline but it wasn't the fact that Prunella wasn't a totally honest character at the beginning that stopped her from getting the award, was it? I would not have thought so, so what did stop her?


It simply says "she didn't fulfill the other condition" which was to be helpful. But it's basically EBD plugging up a plothole and not really thinking it through.

Quote:
So, although I think it was unlikely in Mary-Lou's case, I do think it was possible for everyone to have voted for the same person.

The 100% vote? It goes without even saying that Mary-Lou did not vote for herself. I've known of similar votes a long time ago and you were told not to vote for yourself. EBD would have assumed her readers knew this and that it was a 100% but for one vote.


It does make me wonder who the heck ML voted for :D Yeah, I get the point that EBD was trying to make was that ML was very popular, but she completely overdoes it so you think the vote was rigged.

Actually in my high school, we voted for the school captains and the girl the headmaster/teachers wanted was not very popular among the students. She didn't get even close to the most votes but the headmaster still made her school captain and made the mistake of saying 'almost everyone had voted for her'. Since we all knew who we voted for and discussed it among ourselves we knew darn well that wasn't true.

Cheers,
Joyce

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 05:07 
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Joyce wrote:
Audrey25 wrote:
I thought Does It Again had a silly plotline but it wasn't the fact that Prunella wasn't a totally honest character at the beginning that stopped her from getting the award, was it? I would not have thought so, so what did stop her?


It simply says "she didn't fulfill the other condition" which was to be helpful. But it's basically EBD plugging up a plothole and not really thinking it through.

Quote:
So, although I think it was unlikely in Mary-Lou's case, I do think it was possible for everyone to have voted for the same person.

The 100% vote? It goes without even saying that Mary-Lou did not vote for herself. I've known of similar votes a long time ago and you were told not to vote for yourself. EBD would have assumed her readers knew this and that it was a 100% but for one vote.


It does make me wonder who the heck ML voted for :D Yeah, I get the point that EBD was trying to make was that ML was very popular, but she completely overdoes it so you think the vote was rigged.

Actually in my high school, we voted for the school captains and the girl the headmaster/teachers wanted was not very popular among the students. She didn't get even close to the most votes but the headmaster still made her school captain and made the mistake of saying 'almost everyone had voted for her'. Since we all knew who we voted for and discussed it among ourselves we knew darn well that wasn't true.

Cheers,
Joyce


Yes, EBD overdid the Mary-Lou vote.

I have heard of a number of cases, where head teachers have secretly over-ruled the decision of the majority and put in their own favourite.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 10:04 
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An interesting solution to this is in EJO's Two form captains. Each form has two captains, girls' choice and mistresses' choice, including Head Girls.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 11:36 
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ivohenry wrote:
An interesting solution to this is in EJO's Two form captains. Each form has two captains, girls' choice and mistresses' choice, including Head Girls.


How well do they usually work together? I could see their being some problems. It's funny but that was never an honor people wanted at our school.

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 12:43 
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As tends to happen in books, Karen (my favourite EJO character( and Tazy (Anastasia), the Two Form Captains of the title, become lifelong best mates :D .

At our school, we voted for the Head Girl and 5 deputies ... and there was a strong rumour in our year that one of the girls made a deputy had actually got the highest number of votes, but hadn't been made Head Girl because she'd been what EBD would call a Naughty Middle. I think any of them would have done a reasonable job, though. Only the three top years got to vote though, and, by that age, most people have probably got the sense to realise that being popular doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a good Head Girl - especially at the CS where the HG and prefects were expected to do so much work. Younger kids would probably be more likely to vote for someone like Joyce Linton.

The Dimsie books have the system which I never came across in real life until university, but which seems to be becoming more common in schools now, in which people actually put themselves forward for election and run a campaign. Trebizon does that with choosing the captain of each year's hockey team, and it gets really nasty and bitchy and personal, with girls putting up posters saying horrible things about other candidates :shock:. Jack Lambert would have got well stuck into that ...

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 15:44 
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The Dimsie books have the system... in which people actually put themselves forward for election and run a campaign.

And the book showed how that system could result in the election of an unsuitable candidate, if not manipulated by Dimsie and Miss Yorke!

Then by the time Dimsie had reached the top of the school it had changed so that the girl who was the eldest, or had been longest at school, I forget which, was automatically appointed, which also led to an unsuitable person getting the job.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 17:48 
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Noreen wrote:
I'm not sure that it's called anything in particular: yes, it's a school medal for acts of bravery since coming to the Oberland, and it was Nan Herbert's idea in Excitements for the School's Coming-of-Age celebrations. And yes, it's retrospectively awarded to Prunella (Does It Again), Jo Scott (Kenya), and Mary-Lou and Hilary (New Mistress) - and then I rather think we never hear of it again...

Hilda receives it in ND, Noreen! :twisted: And there are several contenders for the end of the current school year (1961-62) after all I put Hilda through. :roll:

I suppose I could change the JB prize back to its original name, at the same time. Perhaps Jo could have a change of heart...

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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 17:58 
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Richly deserved, then, Mary! :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 18:53 
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At St Hilda's (in Feud) the girls vote for HG and prefects. The CS prefects take a dim view of this, especially Maeve who says she prefers to leave it to staff - well you would say that Maeve as they chose you as HG!


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 19:21 
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I think the staff should choose the Head Girl and prefects otherwise all sorts of issues could arise.
Voting for the MV prize is fine except that EBD goes too far with her unanimous voting.We all knew from the moment Joey brought it up that ML would get it, there was no real need to make it appear everyone loved her lol.
The medal for bravery should be easier, after all to be eligible you must have done an act of bravery.But, once again, it just disappears,no one being heroic after ML leaves apparently. However Copper and Len saved Hilda, Kathie saved the boys, why didn't they get it.If ML qualifies purely for pulling Kathie back at no real danger to herself then Kathie surely qualifies for the James Bond roll into the motor boat! One imagines its purely a case that EBD forgot about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 20:01 
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The MV/JM prize is really a popularity prize, which crops up in a number of school stories, it's in Fortunes of Doria by Pamela Grant (aka Katharine Oldmeadow) also I think in Miss Pickle by Constance Mackness, I'm sure it must be somewhere in Angela Brazil, these are all voted for by the girls.


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 Post subject: Re: Margot Venables Prize.
PostPosted: 22 Jul 2017, 03:23 
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Terrygo wrote:
However Copper and Len saved Hilda, Kathie saved the boys, why didn't they get it.If ML qualifies purely for pulling Kathie back at no real danger to herself then Kathie surely qualifies for the James Bond roll into the motor boat! One imagines its purely a case that EBD forgot about it.


The James Bond roll ... :D And I could NOT explain to my friends when I saw Daniel Craig doing a similar action in a film why I could not stop laughing. "Kathie did it better!" was all I could think.

Audrey25 wrote:
I have heard of a number of cases, where head teachers have secretly over-ruled the decision of the majority and put in their own favourite.


At my school, being captain was not that big a deal - you basically represented the school at events etc but you had no real 'power'. They could not give detention or lines or anything.

I suppose at the CS where the prefects/HG were allowed to give out punishments the Heads had to choose people who would not abuse that power. Though I think driving girls to tears as Joey does, is going a bit too far.

In one of the 'Jenny' books, one of the prefects locks Jenny into a room and she climbs out onto a roof to escape.

Cheers,
Joyce

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