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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 08:04 
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When Simone is preparing for her wedding, she comments that she thought she would have to do without bridesmaids, which would be sad - and 'even Jo had Gisela's little girls'.

This implies that Jo:
a) had a fairly low key wedding
b) Gisela's little girls had arrived in Geurnsey and were recruited as little bridesmaids. This doesn't exclude having Robin as well.
c) EBD is filling in details after the event, with little reference to who was or was not around at the time!

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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 08:47 
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I actually thought it was Frieda who had Gisela's girls as bridesmaids? But I might be "misremembering" :D . I do think Jo's wedding would have been low key, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 09:16 
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I'm afraid it's Miriam who is misremembering:

Quote:
Simone was quite willing to agree. ‘I had thought it must be a summer frock and hat and no brides-maids, as all the rest of you have had,’ she said wistfully. ‘Even Frieda had Gisela’s little girls. But Renée will never be able to get here in time, so I thought I must do without.’

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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 10:08 
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jennifer wrote:
They would be doing a Catholic wedding, but not a full nuptial mass, and they didn't really know many people in the area yet (and those they did were mostly Protestant).

So - probably the priest coming to them, with just family and a few nearby friends along (probably Rosalie and Grizel and a few doctors). Jack's parents would travel to Guernsey if they could manage it. Joey in a fairly simple dress that could be made or altered at home in a few days, with a veil given by someone. Robin as bridesmaid, Jem to give her away. Then back to Madge and Jem's home for a meal prepared by Marie.
If Joey hadn't yet joined the Catholic church (which even at a conservative estimate would take several months), it would be not just low key, but absolutely basic. Not only no question of a nuptial mass, there would be no music (not even hymns), no decorations and it would be likely to take place at the back of the church. At that date they might not even have been permitted to marry in the actual church - I had to do some research on weddings for work, and I've read of Catholic-Protestant marriages in the 1930s-50s having to take place in the vestry or even the rectory/ presbytery. What did you mean by 'the priest coming to them', jennifer? My understanding is that the wedding would have to take place on church premises.

It's possible, of course (EMBD having to decided to make Jack a catholic from childhood), that Pretty Maids may even have included a chapel, which would solve a number of problems if they had travelled there for the wedding. A local priest might even be more likely to be sympathetic about instruction in the faith, knowing that Jo was 'in safe hands' with the Maynards.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 18:44 
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It may have been low-key but I imagine it would still have been a white dress, veil and bridesmaids affair. Someone would have made a dress for Joey and there would have been plenty of small girls to act as bridesmaids. That's a good idea Noreen about the wedding being at Pretty Maids. Even if the Maynards had to chapel, (AF's Merricks did!) the local priest might have waived a few rules for the local squire.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 19:04 
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I think it's much more likely to have been at Pretty Maids, probably a priest who had known Jack since childhood, or if there had been a new one since, at least knew the family and Jack from visits. We know that Joey often attended Catholic services, and was very much inclined towards conversion even not yet actually done so, hence such a priest would be happy to conduct the service. Any Catholic priest on Guernsey might not have been too keen on performing a "mixed" marriage of complete strangers.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 19:14 
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Mel wrote:
It may have been low-key but I imagine it would still have been a white dress, veil and bridesmaids affair. Someone would have made a dress for Joey and there would have been plenty of small girls to act as bridesmaids. That's a good idea Noreen about the wedding being at Pretty Maids. Even if the Maynards had to chapel, (AF's Merricks did!) the local priest might have waived a few rules for the local squire.
Well, it was ivohenry's suggestion about Pretty Maids in the first place, Mel - and the more I thought about it, the likelier it seemed. And the 'in safe hands' notion came about after a conversation with SLOC, who became Catholic as an adult, and was let off a bit more lightly over instruction than a stranger would have been because his prospective godparents were well-known and devout attendees who had been bringing him along to mass for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2018, 21:42 
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I rather think that Joey formally converted to Catholicism after her wedding but before the Triplets were born - but I'll admit I'm deriving that time frame from Helen McLelland's Joey and Patricia than from anywhere in EBD's own canon. However, in Exile, Joey does apologise to Madge for not being able to have her as one of the triplets' godparents because she wasn't Catholic.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 22:02 
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My mother became a catholic during the War, when she and her boyfriend decided to get married. He went off and returned six months later to find she had converted...but met the man she finally married, my father.
She did however, remain a Catholic!

So it seems in wartime, conversions could be quicker than normal perhaps?


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 22:54 
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I think it must have varied a great deal. My grandmother got married to a non-Catholic in one of the nicest RC churches with a full nuptial mass. No problems at all. This was in the 1930s. He never converted.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 23:17 
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NanaG wrote:
So it seems in wartime, conversions could be quicker than normal perhaps?
'How long did/ does it take to join the Catholic church?' does seem to be a question with no single answer - lots of variables. Glad about your grandparents, Mia - I have an older friend who married his Catholic sweetheart in the 1950s, and it was fairly depressing wedding all round.

You've raised another point that I've been thinking about, though, NanaG - was Jo and Jack's wedding in wartime? The Anschluss took place on 12 March 1938, World War 2 began on 1 September 1939, Exile was published in 1940 and ends with the triplets not quite six weeks old...


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2018, 23:51 
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Joey's conversion must have taken place during the war, assuming it was after the triplets were born, but, as mentioned further up the thread, the wedding was probably in around August 1938. For most couples, the political situation wouldn't have had any impact on their wedding plans, but the trauma of what had happened in Spartz and the stressful journey to Guernsey, and having had to leave their home and some of their friends, and not having had chance to settle into a new place, would probably have put Joey and Jack off having a very big "do".

I'm well aware that I'm getting mixed up with Laura Ingalls and Almanzo Wilder here :lol:, but I've always vaguely had it in my head that Jack's family, who sound rather posh, would have wanted him to have a big wedding, and that Joey wasn't keen. But I do know I'm making that up!

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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 20:45 
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I headcanon it as being a very small wedding, with only a few friends and family (Madge and Jem, definitely), and everyone rallying round to make Joey's dress, provide food etc. It was in wartime, so nothing fancy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 21:34 
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Lotte wrote:
I headcanon it as being a very small wedding, with only a few friends and family (Madge and Jem, definitely), and everyone rallying round to make Joey's dress, provide food etc. It was in wartime, so nothing fancy.


No not wartime - about a year earlier, see upthread.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 01 Nov 2018, 23:58 
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ivohenry wrote:
Lotte wrote:
I headcanon it as being a very small wedding, with only a few friends and family (Madge and Jem, definitely), and everyone rallying round to make Joey's dress, provide food etc. It was in wartime, so nothing fancy.


No not wartime - about a year earlier, see upthread.
Even if it had been in the first year of the war, there were still some fairly fancily dressed weddings - no clothes rationing until 1941. My youngest aunt married in June 1940, and wore a long white dress plus veil. She carried a fashionably large bouquet, as did het three bridesmaids and matron of honour, also in long frocks. This was absolutely not a well-off family, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 00:09 
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Noreen wrote:
ivohenry wrote:
Lotte wrote:
I headcanon it as being a very small wedding, with only a few friends and family (Madge and Jem, definitely), and everyone rallying round to make Joey's dress, provide food etc. It was in wartime, so nothing fancy.


No not wartime - about a year earlier, see upthread.
Even if it had been in the first year of the war, there were still some fairly fancily dressed weddings - no clothes rationing until 1941. My youngest aunt married in June 1940, and wore a long white dress plus veil. She carried a fashionably large bouquet, as did het three bridesmaids and matron of honour, also in long frocks. This was absolutely not a well-off family, either.


My mother married Sept 1939, couple of weeks after the beginnng of war. She wore a flowery summer dress. big hat and had a large bouquet. Her bridesmaid was similarly dressed. My aunt who married a year earlier also had flowery summer dress, no long white dressand veil for either, or for another aunt around the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 00:57 
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Well, that was a fashionable look too, ivohenry - and from what I know of that aunt, she would have been keen to make a bit of a statement and also equal her sisters, most of whom had had long white frocks!

ETA: My point was really only that even if the wedding had been in wartime, as it would have been in the early days it need not have precluded a long white dress.


Last edited by Noreen on 02 Nov 2018, 09:11, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 03:23 
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Alison H wrote:
If she had Primula, she'd have had Peggy and Bride as well - and I hope that she stuck to what she'd said about having Grizel as a bridesmaid, because it would have meant so much to Grizel. And, with neither Marie nor Frieda there, maybe it would have meant a lot to Joey as well.

I'd love to know how she got on with Jack's family - we never see her with them.


Just seen this. No doubt someone else has already answered but as I am reading from the beginning and not yet accessed the later replies, I will answer just in case.

We are told Jack's parents adored her! Would it really have been any other answer?! I don't have a clue what book it was in. Must have been in one of the very first of the England books. I think it was maybe where the staff are discussing Mrs Bob Maynard - I forget her own first name.

Joey says in one of the later books that there was never a happier bride. I think she would have been a very happy bride, a glowing bride, a very emotional bride.

She was not pretty but she would have looked striking. Her traditional dress would have suited her tall, slim figure to perfection. She would have had on the lovely veil and held a big bouquet of simple flowers that maybe she and the family picked that morning.

I would like to think that if Madge had not been pregnant, she might have been Matron of Honour. She deserved to be. I don't know if the pregnancy would have made a difference though. Robin and Daisy would certainly have been bridesmaids. Also Grizel if she was around.

Was Joey married in Guernsey or at Jack's old home? I don't suppose it mattered as the rest of her attendants were probably small children - Peggy, Bride, Primula. Would Rix and David have been pages? I suppose Sybil would have been well out of it. She was too young and Joey never gave the impression she was very keen on her. Jackie Bettany would also have been too young.

I did wonder if she was married in Guernsey and Rosalie was around if she might have partnered Grizel. However there was no San at that stage and anyway Rosalie and Jo did not become close until later.

In a funny sort of way I am glad it was never shown. Maybe too difficult for EBD to do with different religions still at that stage and maybe too much anyway for her to tackle the marriage of her hero. Maybe it would not have been so good in reality as we can imagine.

Edited to add - I think the wedding must have been about a year before the war started i.e. possibly August or early September 1938.


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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 09:12 
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I think wedding dresses must have been passed on between relatives and friends, as well. My great uncle and great aunt got married just after the war. He wore uniform, but she, although she'd been a Wren so could also have worn uniform, had a white wedding dress, and I assume she couldn't have got it new.

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 Post subject: Re: Joey's Wedding
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2018, 09:22 
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Alison H wrote:
I think wedding dresses must have been passed on between relatives and friends, as well. My great uncle and great aunt got married just after the war. He wore uniform, but she, although she'd been a Wren so could also have worn uniform, had a white wedding dress, and I assume she couldn't have got it new.
I'm sure they were - or perhaps lent, at least. If a wartime bride was very lucky she might be able to make one from hoarded fabric, as with Simone's dress, or have one made (I've seen a 1944 wedding dress tailor-made from parachute silk).


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